Would you recommend someone to buy a Buell now?

[Squidbuzz]

There is a thread over on BadWeb in the Uly section with someone asking about buying an '06 Uly.  He is wondering if he should buy one since Buell is out of production.

What do you think?

Just wondering since I don't think I could recommend it.

[veefer800canuck]

Isn't Harley mandated by law to provide spare parts for (xx) years?

I would think the aftermarket would ramp up to meet demand too.

And the engines, well, there's a BAZILLION Harley parts out there that will fit, or could be made to fit.

I don't see a problem.

[naustin]

I owned several - I wouldn't buy another one even if they were still in production.  All spare parts will be Chinese remanufactured inferior crap, and he'll have to do all the work on it himself. Bull owners got no respect and 2nd rate service even while buell was alive. Now that bull is dead, good f- in luck.

[Rogue]

I did.  Bought an 1125R eight months ago.

Maintenance parts are plentiful.  All these parts are available online from American Sportbike.  Most body parts are available from American Sportbike or the dealer.  Maintenance you do yourself.  I did even when Buell was around because it was dead simple.  There is no maintenance scheduled service on the Uly that requires opening up the motor like valve inspections.  Oil/filter, spark plugs, air cleaner, brake pads, tires, are the only wear items.

Al Lighton at American Sportbike put it well when he said, you can still buy parts for the old British bikes today!  So there is no worry that Buell parts won't be around.  In any case, AS is well stocked.

[kevin_stevens]

I wouldn't.  My experience is that the parts situation has gone downhill fast despite H-D promises.  For example, it appears that the Lawn Dart will grow new parts quicker than we can buy ones for the Buell damaged in the same adventure.

KeS

[Testcase]

Bought my '06 Uly last year. Promptly destroyed clutch pack and then clutch hub. Replacement parts haven't been an issue. The HD dealers here dropped Buell like a hot potato, but the wrenches still know how to work on em and will. There are hoops and crap to jump through, no joke there, but with a little effort put in with the right service folks, it's not bad. I tend to *like* wrenching on the Uly myself so I've only gone to them for things over my head but it's been fine so far.

IMO, make sure eyes wide open and then recommend it.  

[sammyseaman]

No

[Rincewind]

Interesting comments.  I have not noticed a corresponding drop-out-the-bottom pricing of used models..

[scottzilla]

Interesting comments.  I have not noticed a corresponding drop-out-the-bottom pricing of used models..

I agree. Used prices are still kinda high, IMO.  

[Paulie Hotnuts]

I purchased an 07 Uly this January, rode 5k+ miles on it thus far and I would definitely recommend this bike. Its not for everyone as these forums tell but I have no regrets on my purchase. Some H.D dealers can be a pain in the ass when it comes to parts, and some are very helpful. There are a lot of dealers! I found a dealer today, 25 minutes from my house, with a EBR 1190 for sale and will be a EBR dealer when more models are available. I believe this Dealer will be getting my business from now on.  1190 is really something to see!  

[Rincewind]

I purchased an 07 Uly this January, rode 5k+ miles on it thus far and I would definitely recommend this bike. Its not for everyone as these forums tell but I have no regrets on my purchase. Some H.D dealers can be a pain in the ass when it comes to parts, and some are very helpful. There are a lot of dealers! I found a dealer today, 25 minutes from my house, with a EBR 1190 for sale and will be a EBR dealer when more models are available. I believe this Dealer will be getting my business from now on.  1190 is really something to see!   

Which dealer is that, please?

[Paulie Hotnuts]

Whites Harley Davidson in Lebanon PA.

[Tpoppa]

I've owned 3 buells, 2 XB9s and currently have an 1125R.  The dealer support was always the weak link in the Buell experience, and I happen to be near one of the best Buell dealers in the country.

I traded in an XB for the 1125 during the fire sale.  Of the 20+ streetbikes I've owned the 1125R is definitely the most fun.   It currently has 14k on the clock and I plan to keep it until it grenades or I huck it over a guardrail someday.  The 1125 stator is the only real trouble spot...it's not ideal for sure, but on the other hand it's never left me on the side of the road either.  

Luckily XBs are pretty bulletproof, and the maintenance is simple DIY.  1125s seem to be pretty bulletproof,  too but more maintenance intensive for those not brave enough to rotate the motor and crack the cases for valve checks (myself included).  Any good independent mechanic should be able to handle the valve check as long as you supply the service manual.

As long as there is ebay and people keep crashing bikes there will be parts.  


     

[Bueller]

Frames will be the killer for them.

I'll be keeping my Buell's but it wouldn't be practical to buy one and plan to ride it in to the future.

Not much appeals - maybe an RC8R for me, but if this guy wants a Uly he is better off looking at the BMW, Suzuki and KTM adventure bikes

[Rogue]

If the Uly is priced right it would be a good buy.

Lots of people buy older used bikes for good prices and they have fun wrenching and riding them.  However, the parts availability and dealer support would not exist as well as a bike that is less than 10 years old.  For example, if you were to buy a 1996 VFR750, well good luck finding parts at the dealer for that.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it!  Just be aware.

If you look at it that way, it's actually better to buy a Uly that is newer because there will still be plenty of parts and owner support for it in the next five years.  The XB's were produced from 2003 all the way to 2009, which means there was a long production run.  All this of course as long as the price is right.  A BMW R1200GS will set you back at least $15k for a used one and well over $20k for a new one.  That price discrepancy alone will be a huge factor.  Granted you will have 100% dealer support for such a bike.  If dealer support is important then I say buy an existing brand with a good dealer near you.  If a good, bargain yet relatively new bike is more important then I think XB's are a very good buy.

[2DFlyer]

Like any other bike on the short list I wouldn't hesitate to snatch up the right Uly or 12R that comes along at the right time for the right price.  The only difference is I might push an XB higher on the short list and, as Rogue noted, probably stretch a bit more for a newer model.

[Rogue]

XB's are proven.

The 1125's have issues that need to be rectified immediately before they become reliable.  '09-'10 1125's have Stators that overheat and fail.  The only known fix is to replace the stators with 2008 stators.

[Tpoppa]

Not much appeals - maybe an RC8R for me

I just rode an RC8R during a track day at Mid Ohio.  I rode it for something like 40-50 laps.  Fantastic motorcycle.   The riding position would be ok for long days in the saddle.  However, if you are worried about dealer support, it won't be much better than the current state of Buell.  There aren't many KTM dealers in the states to begin with and many of those don't even support the v twins.  

[Brad1445]

I bought 5 of them new. They were hard to get services correctly before they committed suicide .  But now even the old Buell people them selves have no official fixes for many of the problems, and now never will.


I used to promote the heck out of them, now I say they are bikes with terminal conditions and no DR can help.

[Tpoppa]

They were hard to get services correctly before they committed suicide .  But now even the old Buell people them selves have no official fixes for many of the problems, and now never will.

Back to this?  Other than the 09 stator, what problems are you referring to?

[Windblown]

It's not a practical purchase, but then MC purchases often aren't. As long as the buyer understands what it is they are buying into it's their call.

Personally, I wouldn't buy nor recommend someone else buy any motorcycle from a defunct manufacturer unless the plan was to carefully mothball it for 15 years or more and then break it out for a short ride once in awhile on a sunny day as a conversation piece at MC gatherings.

[stromgal]

I'm going to attempt to ride mine this weekend. So I'll let you know.  

[Tpoppa]

It's not a practical purchase, but then MC purchases often aren't. As long as the buyer understands what it is they are buying into it's their call.

Personally, I wouldn't buy nor recommend someone else buy any motorcycle from a defunct manufacturer unless the plan was to carefully mothball it for 15 years or more and then break it out for a short ride once in awhile on a sunny day as a conversation piece at MC gatherings.

I can assure you that my 1125 will never be babied.  It will be ridden as intended.

[Paulie Hotnuts]

I'll be taking mine to West Virginia for the weekend. I didn't buy it to look at it, I bought it to ride the wheels off it!

[naustin]

Buell used some parts (like the rubber isolators on the tube-frame models) right out of HD's parts bin.  When Harley redesigned their spec on that part, it was no longer up to the task in the Buell application.  The replacement parts were crap and the dealers didn't want to help me.  I was 1,000 miles from home, and one dealer (with a buell sign on his building) basically told me: "tough-limp it home broken.". And that was when buell was still in buisness and the year they sold the most bikes ever.

Unless you do ALL, your own work, including machining your own parts and tapping cylinder heads if necessary, you would be a fool to buy a buell.

That said, if I had my own shop, and could do my own work, and money was no object - I'd buy an 1190.

[Brad1445]

Back to this?  Other than the 09 stator, what problems are you referring to?

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/290431.html?1198049247

the real fun stuff is archived as they knock you off the form if you complaint much about your bike

[Tpoppa]

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/290431.html?1198049247

the real fun stuff is archived as they knock you off the form if you complaint much about your bike

I would agree that BWB is chock full of moderator inspired douchebaggery.  Again other than the stator, to what are you referring?

[Rogue]

Unless you do ALL, your own work, including machining your own parts and tapping cylinder heads if necessary, you would be a fool to buy a buell.

Machining your own parts and tapping cylinders?  If you plan on building a custom bike along with the motor too!  

[Rogue]

I would agree that BWB is chock full of moderator inspired douchebaggery.  Again other than the stator, to what are you referring?

He is referring to his hatred for Erik Buell and the 1125R.  He deserved to get kicked out of BWB.  

That's like going to a VFR forum and bashing VFR's.  Did he think they'll show him any love in there?  

[Rogue]

Personally, I wouldn't buy nor recommend someone else buy any motorcycle from a defunct manufacturer unless the plan was to carefully mothball it for 15 years or more and then break it out for a short ride once in awhile on a sunny day as a conversation piece at MC gatherings.

Plenty of people own Vincent's and ride them.  Plenty of people ride 1960's and 70's British bikes, and even Japanese bikes of that vintage.  

If you are the type that prefers to just drop off your bike at a dealership and have them do everyhting for you I understand.  You should get one with a dealership network.  But like Tpoppa said, something like a KTM is going to be tough to get serviced if you live far from a dealership.  If I were to buy a Guzzi I think there is only one dealership within 100 miles of where I live and I'm not sure I can trust them either.  My experience with motorcycles after owning Japanese bikes for over a two decades is that  their service departments are never as good as me.  NEVER.  All of them fucked something up including the simplest stuff.  I live in SoCal too and I've tried a bunch of different dealers...all of them fucked something up.  All of them.  No thanks.  

[Oddball]

I'd buy one in a heart beat.  As to recommending, they would have to have some knowledge on how to turn a wrench.

[Brad1445]

I would agree that BWB is chock full of moderator inspired douchebaggery.  Again other than the stator, to what are you referring?

You really want to go there?

(sigh)

- Boiling gas
- Repeated clutch weep issues
- Display head malfunctions
- Belt issues
- Noise complaints
- Leaking oil
- Fuel Fumes inside people homes
- Fuel leaking on exhaust pipe
- Exhaust rusting
- unclear oil change procedures within Buell printed material
- Several Flash updates
- Turn signals dont work when bike is wet
- Premature wheel bearing wear
- upside down mounted o2 sensors
- Mysterious parasitic electrical drains, some in just 8 hour work day.
- overheating that burns people and melts Buell full fairing
- Odd engines codes thrown intermittently that dealers can not replicate
- Faulty rear signals.  Some people in 4th set.
- rear cylinder cam chain tensioner
- TPS resets needed in between dealer servicing
- the noid
- Clutch lock up in 6th gear
- Engine Stalling in hard lean angels
- non responsive speedometers
- Fuel shooting out when gas cap removed

I could go on but dont feel like it.

I think the largest problem would be the large number of people that once they experience on of the above issues can lose their bike for MONTHS as Harley Dealers try to figure out whats what and where to get a part.


I dont like this.  I loved all 5 of my new XB Buell's.  Watching them release crap that killed he brand beyond repair is very disturbing.  

I lost my favorite bike Manufacture.

[phaze5]

i wouldn't even when they were in production,

[kevin_stevens]

I would agree that BWB is chock full of moderator inspired douchebaggery.  

+ a million.

It's about the only Buell resource on the web - certainly the best one - and I refuse to go there anymore.  The most hateful corner of the Internet I've yet found.

KeS

[Tpoppa]

You really want to go there?

(sigh)

- Boiling gas
- Repeated clutch weep issues
- Display head malfunctions
- Belt issues
- Noise complaints
- Leaking oil
- Fuel Fumes inside people homes
- Fuel leaking on exhaust pipe
- Exhaust rusting
- unclear oil change procedures within Buell printed material
- Several Flash updates
- Turn signals dont work when bike is wet
- Premature wheel bearing wear
- upside down mounted o2 sensors
- Mysterious parasitic electrical drains, some in just 8 hour work day.
- overheating that burns people and melts Buell full fairing
- Odd engines codes thrown intermittently that dealers can not replicate
- Faulty rear signals.  Some people in 4th set.
- rear cylinder cam chain tensioner
- TPS resets needed in between dealer servicing
- the noid
- Clutch lock up in 6th gear
- Engine Stalling in hard lean angels
- non responsive speedometers
- Fuel shooting out when gas cap removed

I could go on but dont feel like it.

That is quite a list from someone who has never thrown a leg over a 1125 (read as you have no clue what you are talking about).

Just because someone may have mentioned it on a web forum doesn't mean it's an ongoing widespread problem.  For comparison and a reality check, here is a 50 page bitchfest of HD owners complaining about unresolved issues:  http://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/671434-hd-sued-over-excess-heat.html

The only 1125 issue without a well thought out fix is the stator.  If 1125s were that prone to issues I would have sold mine 2 years ago.

[Tpoppa]

+ a million.

It's about the only Buell resource on the web - certainly the best one - and I refuse to go there anymore.  The most hateful corner of the Internet I've yet found.

KeS

There is good technical info posted there by users.  The attitudes of the mods on that site are ridiculous.  That's turned off more that a few potential Buell owners over the years.

[Brad1445]

That is quite a list from someone who has never thrown a leg over a 1125 (read as you have no clue what you are talking about).

Just because someone may have mentioned it on a web forum doesn't mean it's an ongoing widespread problem.  For comparison and a reality check, here is a 50 page bitchfest of HD owners complaining about unresolved issues:  http://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/671434-hd-sued-over-excess-heat.html

The only 1125 issue without a well thought out fix is the stator.  If 1125s were that prone to issues I would have sold mine 2 years ago.

Yup, I have no clue.   Enjoy your bike.

[Tpoppa]

I do, thanks.  

I'll be leading a 500 mile group ride tomorrow.  Can I call you if I break down  

[Brad1445]

lol, of course!

[Rogue]

That is quite a list from someone who has never thrown a leg over a 1125 (read as you have no clue what you are talking about).

Just because someone may have mentioned it on a web forum doesn't mean it's an ongoing widespread problem.  For comparison and a reality check, here is a 50 page bitchfest of HD owners complaining about unresolved issues:  http://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/671434-hd-sued-over-excess-heat.html

The only 1125 issue without a well thought out fix is the stator.  If 1125s were that prone to issues I would have sold mine 2 years ago.

I'm amazed at how long that list was!   :lol

I had to laugh at the "noise complaints".  What a freakin' joke!
95% on that list is 100% bogus.  Who made that up?  Brad, you truly are a drunken monkey.  Really!  

[Blunder]

Ya know what? If I were of a mind and you really want one, I'd buy a Buell. That dude seems to have a stature, a 'tude, to where he won't give up. He'll stand behind his product and he'll answer your phone call. Dare i say it but he's the American Guzzi. Lake Michigan can't quite compare, but......

[Brad1445]

I'm amazed at how long that list was!   :lol

I had to laugh at the "noise complaints".  What a freakin' joke!
95% on that list is 100% bogus.  Who made that up?  Brad, you truly are a drunken monkey.  Really!  

Yeah I just made the stuff up.  After buying 5 new Buell's I love seeing the name trashed.  Makes me look smart for buying all them.  Pure fabrication.  I encourage you to get a new one ASAP.   (the common "made=up" noise complaint" is that the engine sounds like a box of rocks.   But I'm just making this up as I go. The Buell name is solid!!!

[falconati]

....he has a new one.

[sammyseaman]

Yeah I just made the stuff up.  After buying 5 new Buell's I love seeing the name trashed.  Makes me look smart for buying all them.  Pure fabrication.  I encourage you to get a new one ASAP.   (the common "made=up" noise complaint" is that the engine sounds like a box of rocks.   But I'm just making this up as I go. The Buell name is solid!!!

   there's a few people on here that drink lots 'o kool-aid and there's no reasoning with them. No sense wasting you energy.

[Rogue]

Brad didn't drink any cool aid, he poisoned himself to death and got his ass kicked out of BWB.  All because he hated the way the pods looked on the 1125R.  All of us Buell owners know his story since the beginning.  He is a Buell pariah!    

As for me, I'm one of the few in BWB that actually ADMIT to being aware of the 1125R issues.  I've even had arguments with people who get annoyed when I mention the 1125R's known issues.  I know exactly which ones they are and bought mine with eyes wide open.  Brad's list of stuff are complaints that he collected by reading BWB posts when the '08 1125R's were first released.  The 2008 1125R had the following recalls:

Kickstand spring (replaced)
ECM reflash (the most current was 2009 program)
Clutch Cover fluid leak (clutch cover replaced with improved 2009 model)

It also has TSB's issued if/when other issues came up:
Early rear turn signals defective (replaced with newer ones)
Instrument Cluster power drain (instrument cluster replaced with 2009)
Rear bearing early failure (bearings replaced with higher quality units)

Other known characteristics that are easily rectified:
Front rotor easily warped at 15k miles.  Need to replace rotor (I did that with mine).  I had the same issue with my XB12R.
Rear brake caliper would seize up/lock due to infrequent use (replace the caliper or use it regularly).  This happened because the exhaust would dump soot into the caliper mechanism and riders who rarely use their rear brakes loose the caliper's functionality.  The exhaust would dump soot into the caliper/rotor because it is pointed directly at it to pass DOT noise regulation.

2009 models has a chronic problem of overheating and failing stators.  Buell raised the stator's power output in 2009 (unknown reasons why) and these higher output stators did not have adequate cooling from the engine oil.  So they failed after a period of time especially in bikes ridden hard in hot climates or frequently does stop and go traffic duty.  The only known cure is to replace the stator with 2008 stators with the lower output.  This is the ONLY issue that was not rectified by Buell in a recall campaign or a TSB.

The noise that Brad complains about is BS.  The Helicon engine has finger followers for valve actuation (most engines have shim under bucket).  Finger followers allow shims to be replaced without the removal of the camshaft.  However it adds valve clatter noise.  In all honesty, the Helicon is barely louder than a Ducati liquid cooled L-twin engine.  If that L-twin has an open covered dry clutch, the Duc engine is significantly louder at idle.  It really is a none issue.  The Thunderstorm engine is so much louder at idle and it sounds more like a can of marbles.  The Helicon sounds like a highly tuned V-twin to me.  It's not VFR800 quiet that's for sure.  Most are not.  Most of the engine noise comes from the exhaust!  

All the rest of his list of complaints are BS personal complaints or stuff that somebody thinks is an excuse to bash the bike.  I mean look at it!  "Unclear oil change procedure in Buell manual"?  "the noid"?  C'mon!  

[Tpoppa]

I rode mine for 470 miles today.

When I started it up...sure enough it made noise.  So, I turned it off and the noise stopped, I thought I solved it.  But when I restarted it I heard some noise again  

What Brad knows < What Brad thinks he knows

[Rogue]

 

Nice one.

I started mine up and rode it this morning.  It sounded like a normal liquid cooled V-twin to me.  The exhaust is a bit louder than most bikes with an OEM exhaust that's for sure.  Most of the noise comes from there.  But it sounds great at revs.  I found a nice empty road so I got it up to 100.  Sounded even better!  

BTW, I just changed the oil on it about 500 miles ago.  I followed the Service Manual instructions and all went well.  I'm waiting for something to go wrong with it but so far none of Brad's complaints have materialized.  Of course I speak from experience and Brad....well I'm not really sure.  But what do I know?

[falconati]

I rode one, one time, and it was fun!

Must have been an off-day for the bike though, since it fired right up.  I also agree with the comments about the stock exhaust - it's definitely louder than your average bike...the damn thing barks.

[Squidbuzz]

(OH MY, I'm defending Brad, but he has some points)

The long list isn't that far out of whack when you start digging into BadWeb and talking to people around the country.

Many things over many years made Buell what Buell was.  HD didn't help either.

[Tpoppa]

(OH MY, I'm defending Brad, but he has some points)

The long list isn't that far out of whack when you start digging into BadWeb and talking to people around the country.

Many things over many years made Buell what Buell was.  HD didn't help either.

I think the reality check in this case is this:  Go to any brand specific motorycle forum, and do the same search for reported issues.  If you look hard enough you will find a long list of parts that have failed on at least 1 motorcycle.

In the case of Buell, the difference is/was this:  Dealer support was unusually poor.  If you had a problem with your Honda, there is a good chance you could drop it off at the dealer and they would fix it correctly.  Buell riders had no choice but to post problems on the internet (BWB) because that was really the only body of knowledge out there.  

btw, that is the rub with BWB.  The site is run by a total jackass.  But over the years Buell riders have contributed a ton of really good content.  That almost makes it worthwhile to tolerate said jackass...almost.
         

[DogBoy]

I still want to own an XB9sx or XB12s. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one when I get around to unloading the YZF and buying a street bike again. I might end up buying something else but the fact that Buell has gone out of business wouldn't influence my purchasing decision.


And its good to see Brad keeping the Buell forum on its toes.  

Did you race SM this summer?

[bomber]

I love my Tuber! Rough and ready, and makes me feel like I'm 17 again (in both good and not so good ways ;-}  ) . . . . . .

Like anything else, it's a trade off -- if you want what a Buell offers, I can't think of much else that will supply it . . . . Tubers (with their Sportie Based engines) have great support for parts and OK availability of aftermarket goodies -- I can comment on the newer models, but I no of NO owners that are trying to unload any of em . . . . . .

What I can say is that, if you have a problem, and don't act like a dick, the folks on BWB will fall all over themselves to help you . . . they know as much about the bikes, and keeping em alive, as the factory.

[Rogue]

(OH MY, I'm defending Brad, but he has some points)

The long list isn't that far out of whack when you start digging into BadWeb and talking to people around the country.

Many things over many years made Buell what Buell was.  HD didn't help either.

Squid, the list I put above is pretty damn accurate.  I searched long and hard on the 1125R issues before I bought mine.  The one I have is it.

Reading Brad's list makes it extremely obvious to me that it was written by someone who did only a cursory glance at what people are posting about the 1125R in BWB.  Some of the items on his list overlap and many are extremely vague.  If you dig deeper you will realize (as I have) that most of them are either issues that have been resolved and/or innacurate/opinions.  It's like saying, the Buell XB's vibrate at idle, mufflers rust, fans run loudly after shutdown, shoots jet hot heat into the rider's right leg, lacks top end power, hyper-sensitive to tire choice, requires accurate suspension set up to handle correctly, therefore don't buy it because it's a bad bike!    I'm surprised he did not mention the pods on the 1125R!

Like I said, the only unresolved issue is the 2009 Stators overheating and failing.  The resolution is to replace with 2008 stator.

That doesn't mean all 1125R's are going to be 100% reliable.  However, if one buys an early 1125R with parts updated with recalled items and known TSB fixes, they are actually quite reliable.  And that is why I went forward with my purchase.  So far, it has been working out for me.  Keeping up to date on 1125R BWB board, this is true for most owners.

Again, your mileage will vary, etc., etc.

[Rogue]

I still want to own an XB9sx or XB12s. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one when I get around to unloading the YZF and buying a street bike again. I might end up buying something else but the fact that Buell has gone out of business wouldn't influence my purchasing decision.


And its good to see Brad keeping the Buell forum on its toes.  

Well if you want to know about those, the XB's had some known issues too.

They have the same exhaust muffler that is prone to rust like the 1125R.  They also have loud fans that have a lifespan of about 15k-20k miles.  Front rotors also have a similar life before warping.  The early XB's (up to '06) had fuel pumps that had a tendency to short due to improper wiring insulation.  It's easy to screw up the TPS reset.  Early wheel bearings had the same weak ones fitted to early 1125's.  The later the XB's the better/more reliable they became.

In any case, none of these issues are impossible to fix.  Simply replacing the parts will rectify the situation.  Buell made improved parts later on in the XB's production cycle.  All these issues are known in BWB and all have resolutions.

[DogBoy]

I only want the reliable one where nothing goes wrong ever.  

[Rogue]

2007 models.  

2008 models had fueling issues due to emissions change.  Haha!

Seriously, I would rate overall late model Buell reliability as being below average.  Above average would be Honda.  The good news is that Buell kept on improving every single model of bike so every year it is improved with parts with greater reliability.

For example the fuel pump wiring harnesses shorting out were replaced with a wiring harnesses with a stronger insulation that covered most of the wiring to prevent rubbing against the fuel pump housing.  This improved wiring was made available as a replacement part and on late 2006 and newer XB's.  Another one is the rear wheel bearings that were fixed with higher quality wheel bearings available as replacement and on later Buells.  

You see, people won't know that unless they really dig deep into BWB or experience and fix the issue themselves.  Simply by scanning BWB won't reveal the fix.  In other words, they're not as bad as Brad makes them out to be.  I too thought the same until I really did more research.

[kevin_stevens]

2009 models has a chronic problem of overheating and failing stators.  Buell raised the stator's power output in 2009 (unknown reasons why) and these higher output stators did not have adequate cooling from the engine oil.  So they failed after a period of time especially in bikes ridden hard in hot climates or frequently does stop and go traffic duty.  The only known cure is to replace the stator with 2008 stators with the lower output.  This is the ONLY issue that was not rectified by Buell in a recall campaign or a TSB.

I don't believe this is correct.  The problem statement - yes.  The resolution - I don't believe the factory ever replaced 2009 stators with 2008s.  There was more to doing that than just the stator itself, maybe the case or cover or some of the wiring, it wasn't a drop-in fix.  There *was* a recall campaign for the 2009 which involved a charging harness rework, effectively shutting off one leg of the stator below 5K rpm to reduce the overheating.  AFAIK there wasn't a verdict in on whether that fixed the problem completely or not.  My 2009 has had the wiring harness rework.

KeS

[Tpoppa]

I don't believe this is correct.  The problem statement - yes.  The resolution - I don't believe the factory ever replaced 2009 stators with 2008s.  There was more to doing that than just the stator itself, maybe the case or cover or some of the wiring, it wasn't a drop-in fix.  There *was* a recall campaign for the 2009 which involved a charging harness rework, effectively shutting off one leg of the stator below 5K rpm to reduce the overheating.  AFAIK there wasn't a verdict in on whether that fixed the problem completely or not.  My 2009 has had the wiring harness rework.

KeS

KeS is spot on.


The charging harness update is a fix, but not very well thought out.  This was introduced by HD after Buell was shuttered.  It was without a doubt the CHEAPEST solution that HD could conceive.  It'll will extend the like of the stator, but at a cost of starving the motorcycle for power at idle.  Idling for too long will drain the battery.  Lots of people interpreted this as another stator failure.  It's a crappy fix.  HD never told Buell owners what to expect with the harness upgrade installed and there is still a lot of confusion.

Some creative Buell owners have come up with ways around this.  The best one I've seen has never been discussed on BWB.

HD will NOT replace the 2009 charging system with 2008 parts under warranty.  I have read documentation from HD to this point.

[stromgal]

I love my Tuber! Rough and ready, and makes me feel like I'm 17 again (in both good and not so good ways ) . . . . . .

Yep. All it's missing is a kicker. Well, and it has brakes and suspension that actually work.
 I thoroughly enjoyed riding it this past weekend, even if my *ss is still sore. 

[Paulie Hotnuts]

You will need to plan on taking care of your own maintenance and get familiar with the workings of your Buell. I would recommend doing that on any bike you plan on riding a fair amount.  Clocked 1400+ miles on the xb this weekend, most West Virginia/Virginia mountain twisties. Uly never missed a beat. I cant think of another bike I would rather have ridden on this trip. Just saying.....

[Squidbuzz]

I will say this, thanks to all.  This has been and is, one of the more interesting threads I have read on ST.N.

Brad, thanks for being civil with us pod lovers.  Everyone else, kudos to you also.

My '09 Uly has been a challenge this year.  Rear bearing failure at 27K, should have replaced them at 17K.  Broken belt.  hhmm... I guess too many holeshots.  Now the front bearing at 37K.  Not to mention my fun with Twin Motorcycles Torque Hammer muffler and their ECM reprogramming.

[Bueller]

I did my first set of wheel bearings - front and rear at 24,000 km.  Second set at 38,000 km and a set of rears at 52,000 km.  I don't pressure wash the bike.  I ride all weather but it is parked undercover almost everywhere.

Belts have lasted 24,000 km.

Just noting - not complaining.  I haven't had much trouble and the bike is cheap to run.

I've got a TorqueHammer SquidBuzz.  I've also sold quite a few.  I haven't had any problems with the tunes - people love them - but I went through a stage where they were expecting the side-stand switch - which doesn't come on AUS models.  What problems did you have?  They should have sorted it, they are really good with support and backing their products.

[Tpoppa]

  Clocked 1400+ miles on the xb this weekend, most West Virginia/Virginia mountain twisties.

That is one of the best, least known areas to ride.  I'd actually prefer a trip there to deals gap.  Did you ride the mountain pass on 33?  That is one of my all time favorite stretches of asphalt.

[Rogue]

KeS is spot on.

HD will NOT replace the 2009 charging system with 2008 parts under warranty.  I have read documentation from HD to this point.

Just to clarify, I never said H-D will replace '09 stators with '08's.  If you re-read my post I said replacing '09 stators with '08's stators is the only known resolution to the issue.  Quite a few '09 owners have done this with success.  

H-D prefers to replace an '09 stator with another '09 stator that will fail eventually.  Talk about being stupid.  That's like having a failed kidney and replacing it with another kidney that will eventually fail again.  They are doing this until warranty runs out and the owner is on their own.  Typical H-D mentality.

[Squidbuzz]

Bueller, as you know, I have a tendency to try and be unique and that is why I went with the Torque Hammer from Twin Motorcycles.

I ordered the muffler and the over the internet tune with adapter cable.  

The ordering part was tough because their website didn't like my credit card.  I had to get that straightened out on my end.  Just a pain.

Everything arrives and looks good.  My friend's son who is MMI certified starts installing the new pipe.  He gets half way through and finds the header to muffler pipe is for a big header, not stock.  ugh..  He has to put all the stock parts back on.

I email Twin and the correct pipe is sent.

The installation happens and the one thing that I notice is that the out pipe is kinda high.  Twin's suggestion is to slightly turn the muffler so that the exhaust isn't spraying on the passengers foot.  I haven't done that yet, but needs to be done.

Coordinating the ECM remap was interesting since I'm in the States.  After a few emails and days, it gets coordinated.  4am install on my end.  The install wasn't smooth because their remapping software didn't like running on my netbook because of the smaller display.  In watching it, things didn't look well, but they assured me that everything was ok.

The bike ran like crap.  Super rich.  Gas mileage went from 40+ mph to about 32 mph.  Not good.  I ask Twin about it and I am assured that everything is ok.  The bike is running so rich that the swing arm is turning black from the exhaust.  Twin is stating that I must have an exhaust gasket problem or some other type of intake leak.  Something other than their stuff.

I go to Buell Homecoming and Erik himself gives the smell from my bike a wrinkled nose look.

I mention this to Twin to no avail.  I decide drastic measures are needed.  I buy an EBR ECM for a pipe that is similiar.  The rich smell goes away and the mileage comes back.  Bike runs better, but still isn't right.  Therefore proving that I don't have a leak or something else bothering my engine.

I suggest to Twin that I should send the ECM to them and they agree.  This is now about 3 months in to this project.  I send the ECM to Yurrup via UPS.  Expensive, but worth it.  I didn't want my ECM to get lost.

Dris at Twin says that there was a problem with the programming and he is unsure why.  Seems he made a program change and my ECM didn't like it.  So 10 days later, he sends an ECM back to me.

MUCH better.  The bike sounds better, smells better and over all performs better.  I only have 2 tanks of gas on the new ECM so I don't have a good feel yet for the gas milage.  It is up from their previous Twin tune, but not up to EBR's tune.

So there is some of my story on getting my Torque Hammer and tune running.

[Bueller]

Just to clarify, I never said H-D will replace '09 stators with '08's.  If you re-read my post I said replacing '09 stators with '08's stators is the only known resolution to the issue.  Quite a few '09 owners have done this with success.  

H-D prefers to replace an '09 stator with another '09 stator that will fail eventually.  Talk about being stupid.  That's like having a failed kidney and replacing it with another kidney that will eventually fail again.  They are doing this until warranty runs out and the owner is on their own.  Typical H-D mentality.

My 1125R is on its third stator.  H-D Australia considered my request for an 08 replacement.  The reply sounds like it came from the US.  ... not tested... I could do it at my own expense but the electricals would not be covered by warranty ...

I have 15 months warranty left.  See if they think the same when I'm on my 6th or 7th.  Anyway there is a guy here successfully rewinding them.  I have that as an option after warranty.
Posted on: 21 September 2011, 20:46:09The current strategy is pushing a latent defect class action.  There is a solution.  Put in the charging system that was approved by the engine manufacturer, so there is a clear case for lemon law.

[Bueller]

I've had a few mistakes with them as well SquidBuzz but they have always sorted it.  Lately it has been running pretty smoothly with them.  They are getting more experienced, and their heart and mind are in the right place.

I've been through dozens of net downloads with them.

It is an open loop tune.  You will lose mileage over stock, but when it is running right it just purs.  I have an 07 so I could modify the enrichment and take the AF from 13.5:1 to 13.9:1, and now it gets pretty close to stock consumption and still purs and runs cool.

[Squidbuzz]

Yeah, my thought is to save up and buy a programmable kit from EBR and then take the bike to my normal shop, Suburban Harley, and have them retune it.

Time will tell.

But the new programming and pipe pull like hell between 5K and 7K RPM.  WHOA!  Much fun!

[Rogue]

I have 15 months warranty left.  See if they think the same when I'm on my 6th or 7th.  Anyway there is a guy here successfully rewinding them.  I have that as an option after warranty.

Aren't you getting tired of taking it back to the dealer for a new stator?

Personally, I would just have it rewound and enjoy the rest of my life.  

[Squidbuzz]

It is an open loop tune.  

What exactly does that mean?

[Bueller]

What exactly does that mean?

The O2 sensor is disabled - so no feedback.  The O2 sensor is primarily to meet emissions.  It does help with altitude compensation, but in Australia for example I couldn't find an altitude high enough to make a difference with that tune.  The tune is better at altitude than the add on tuning devices like Power Commander, Dobeck or Poweriser - which compensate in limited bands.

When the O2 sensor is enabled the fuel scaling is enabled.  The scaling takes a sample in a limited range of RPM and throttle position at steady revs, and then determines the percentage that the rear fuel map is over or under the emissions limit at that range, and then adds that percentage to the front and rear fuel maps to decide how long the injectors should be pumping fuel during a cycle.  This is closed loop.  It is difficult to get a good closed loop good tune because when you roll on you will use the map + fuel scaling, when you are at steady revs you will use the O2 sensor to decide how much fuel to deliver.  Transitioning between the two can lead to hiccups and hesitation.

A map is just a lookup table that gives the amount of fuel to deliver for a given throttle position and RPM.  This is what gets tuned to a new muffler.  The scaling factor is applied to the map at non-steady revs or when the revs are outside of the range where the O2 sensor is used to determine the mixture.

The open loop tune aims to deliver the same fuel mixture across the whole rev range.  It eliminates the transitions between O2 sensor and map so the bike runs smoother.  It delivers a bit more fuel so the bike runs cooler.  The cost of this is higher fuel consumption over stock.  It quite often leads to lower fuel consumption than running an after-market muffler without having the bike tuned.  A bike that is running hot and lean at some revs may suffer from excessive fuel consumption.  

[Bueller]

Aren't you getting tired of taking it back to the dealer for a new stator?

Personally, I would just have it rewound and enjoy the rest of my life.  

I don't have much option.  If I change the alternator I miss out on warranty of the entire electricals.  A friend just had his harness replaced under warranty to solve a mysterious gremlin.  I wouldn't want to be paying for something like that.

I'll look at the charging if I need to when the bike comes out of warranty.  H-D may have a solution by then.  They aren't as black as we sometimes paint them.

[kevin_stevens]

I don't have much option.  If I change the alternator I miss out on warranty of the entire electricals.  A friend just had his harness replaced under warranty to solve a mysterious gremlin.  I wouldn't want to be paying for something like that.

I'll look at the charging if I need to when the bike comes out of warranty.  H-D may have a solution by then.  They aren't as black as we sometimes paint them.

+1

But the problem in the meantime is that I can now not consider my 1125 a sport-touring machine, because there is quite a bit of empirical evidence that it may experience a total charging system failure at any random moment.  

KeS

[Tpoppa]

With the harness upgrade, I think it's unlikely that the stator will fail without warning.

If you are going to have problems, it's more likely that the harness will starve the motorcycle for power at idle and drain the battery.  When this happens, the symptons are very close to a stator failure.  A lot of issues have been misdiagnosed as a result.

If a leg of the stator does fail, you could always bypass the harness upgrade and run on the other 2 legs.  This can be done without tools.  That should get you home.

Perhaps EBR or HD, or someone else will release a proper fix.  In the mean time, I bought this to use as a ST and that's how it'll be used.

[Rogue]

When the O2 sensor is enabled the fuel scaling is enabled.  The scaling takes a sample in a limited range of RPM and throttle position at steady revs, and then determines the percentage that the rear fuel map is over or under the emissions limit at that range, and then adds that percentage to the front and rear fuel maps to decide how long the injectors should be pumping fuel during a cycle.  This is closed loop.  It is difficult to get a good closed loop good tune because when you roll on you will use the map + fuel scaling, when you are at steady revs you will use the O2 sensor to decide how much fuel to deliver.  Transitioning between the two can lead to hiccups and hesitation.

Great write up Bueller.

On my VFR800, the transition between closed/open loop made the bike surge at constant throttle openings curing cruise or low speed.  Cruise can be 80 mph and it was tricky to maintain that speed consistently due the surging as the engine would go into closed loop and lean the mixture so the engine would lose power and slow the bike down.  I would then compensate by opening up the throttle more, then repeat.  Very annoying.  When I put my PCIII on my VFR, it literally eliminated the Oxygen Sensor connection, making the bike open loop at all times.  No more surging, smoother power, same fuel consumption.  

[Rogue]

I'll look at the charging if I need to when the bike comes out of warranty.  H-D may have a solution by then.  They aren't as black as we sometimes paint them.

Yes they are.  

The way they treated EB and Buell owners, yes they are.  Maybe at the time they purchased Buell back in the 1990's, they had good intentions and were looking towards their future.  But that was then and this is now.  We are dealing with a corporation that is only interested in one thing:  making the most profits off of existing customers by selling products below par.  EB and his team were their polar opposite--they were interested in building and selling the best bike they could build and taking on the world.  That is why their cultures collided and H-D management, with the approval of their current BOD allowed Wandel to get rid of Buell.

If HD really wanted to take care of existing Buell customers, they would NOT be replacing your stator with the same defective stator and stringing you out until your warranty runs out.  You think HD is looking for a solution to this issue?  I’ll be my house they are not!  They washed their hands of Buell.  Period.  Your only alternative is to put an ’08 stator, or wait until EBC markets a fix.

[Bueller]

I have a fix. I tried to get some 2009 stator irons so I could start an exchange service.  The repairer is keen.

The re-manufacturer is winding the stators with thinner wire and using a more resilient coating, but not one of the super coatings that keep too much heat in.  They are triple dipping them.  So far no failures.  I'll be able to get one for $200 once warranty is over.  If I can push latent defect on to H-D I'll do that instead.  They are making this decision.

At the same time they were good with their replies about the matter.  They gave us 1 year extended warranty for free - the decision came about 6 months after I'd bought the bike.  It is more than a dump Buell attitude.

I've wondered if EB pulled an attitude that pissed off some of the board.  The squash an insect mentality can go with something that is annoying.  From what I have read EB is a really driven person.  The Blast coffee table may not have been something that appealed to H-D.

Changing stators at an average span of 5,000 km for the next 2 years may prompt some re-think on the stators.
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 20:41:18

+1

But the problem in the meantime is that I can now not consider my 1125 a sport-touring machine, because there is quite a bit of empirical evidence that it may experience a total charging system failure at any random moment.  

KeS

I've got roadside assistance Kevin

I just have to change the stator with the oil and it all works.  I am riding 16000km to the Buell Muster in a couple of weeks and I don't expect any hassels. All up it will be around a 4000km round trip.  
I only do a small amount of city riding on it, and that is what I suspect is hard on the stator.
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 20:56:36

With the harness upgrade, I think it's unlikely that the stator will fail without warning.

If you are going to have problems, it's more likely that the harness will starve the motorcycle for power at idle and drain the battery.  When this happens, the symptons are very close to a stator failure.  A lot of issues have been misdiagnosed as a result.

If a leg of the stator does fail, you could always bypass the harness upgrade and run on the other 2 legs.  This can be done without tools.  That should get you home.

Perhaps EBR or HD, or someone else will release a proper fix.  In the mean time, I bought this to use as a ST and that's how it'll be used.

I'm sort of there with you Toppa.  I think I can disconnect the upgrade relay and get two of the windings back.  It's short term because one of them is going to fail soon after.  One of my Laverdas wouldn't run at high revs on two windings, but the 1125R sort of can.  Its when the relay cuts in and takes it down to one winding that I have trouble.

There has been talk of mis-diagnosis. but when I contacted EB Racing one time they said the only cure they knew of was a 2008 alternator. They have virtually conceded that it is a problem.

When my dealer was confirming the failure they held the throttle at 4000 RPM until the temp hit 100C.  You could smell electrical burning on the stator side.

I think you are right about the possibility of H-D finding a solution.  If latent defect doesn't cover the bike then our lemon law might.  They don't want to be buying hundreds of bikes back just so I can buy a Wakan.  
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 21:09:05

Great write up Bueller.

On my VFR800, the transition between closed/open loop made the bike surge at constant throttle openings curing cruise or low speed.  Cruise can be 80 mph and it was tricky to maintain that speed consistently due the surging as the engine would go into closed loop and lean the mixture so the engine would lose power and slow the bike down.  I would then compensate by opening up the throttle more, then repeat.  Very annoying.  When I put my PCIII on my VFR, it literally eliminated the Oxygen Sensor connection, making the bike open loop at all times.  No more surging, smoother power, same fuel consumption.  

The Buell ECM seems to be tricker with add-on devices than other bikes Rogue.  PC abandoned the one for the XB and some people are running approximate versions, and getting engine warning lights for O2 sensor always rich.  

Did you have an aftermarket system on the VFR or was it stock?  Honda are usually pretty good with tuning.

Some of the systems people have contacted me about on an 1125 have given serious AFV instability.  When they roll on they don't know how much power they will get.  HMF is one that comes to mind, but Jardine as well.  EB Racing ECMs worked with them.  The HMF had to send his back for adjustment but they got there.
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 21:24:57Also Toppa I agree about the warning.  The charging seems to drop gradually for 2 or 3 weeks before it actually fails.  I knew it was on the way out last time.  I keep the instrument display on temp / charging all the time so I monitor it.

[Tpoppa]

Bueller,
I'd be very curious to see your fix.  Several companies have taken a shot at 1125 rewinds with mixed results.  I agree that the super think coatings tend to hold in heat.

08 stators are rated at 432W and are solid.  09s are 520w and obviously generate more heat than can be managed.  Rewinding an 09 stator to 08 specs has been discussed quite a few times.  But there is more to it.  In addition to the 08 stator generating less heat, it is also a more effective heat sink.  The 08 spreads the heat across 18 poles, while the 09 has only 12 poles.  The 08 has more surface area to dissapate heat.  So, even if the 09 is rewound to near 432W, each pole will need to handle more heat than on a 08 stator.

Comparing the 2 side by side.   The 08 is clearly of higher quality:
08 - Machine wound, 18 pole, made in Croatia, looks just like other Rotax stators.
09 - Hand wound, 12 pole, not stamped with a country of origin (which probably means made in USA), looks just like other HD stators.

I'm sure there is a story behind that, and it ends with trying to cut costs, which is a goal for most manufacturing processes.
 

[kevin_stevens]

I've got roadside assistance Kevin

I just have to change the stator with the oil and it all works.  I am riding 16000km to the Buell Muster in a couple of weeks and I don't expect any hassels. All up it will be around a 4000km round trip.  
I only do a small amount of city riding on it, and that is what I suspect is hard on the stator.

Cool, how well does that work down in Baja?

When I see something like "I just have to change the stator with the oil", that answers the OP's question better than anything I could type myself.  

KeS

[Rogue]

Cool, how well does that work down in Baja?
KeS

In Baja, Mexico, Pepito and his cousin will come pick you up.  

No seriously, whatever the case roadside assistance is not a good option but it's better than nothing.  The real solution is to have a proper stator that will no fail so you wont' need any assistance.  I hear yah on that.

[Rogue]

At the same time they were good with their replies about the matter.  They gave us 1 year extended warranty for free - the decision came about 6 months after I'd bought the bike.  It is more than a dump Buell attitude.

I've wondered if EB pulled an attitude that pissed off some of the board.  The squash an insect mentality can go with something that is annoying.  From what I have read EB is a really driven person.  The Blast coffee table may not have been something that appealed to H-D.

We had a Cycle World article here last year, written by a Buell/HD insider regarding the demise of Buell at the hands of H-D.  The article confirmed many of the rumors/leaks/assumptions/theories of H-D mismanagement of Buell from the development of the XB all the way to the end.  It's as bad as most people believed it to be.

If you read/watch how EB behaves in public when asked about his relationship with H-D, he is always extremely gracious and political.  I find it hard to believe that someone like that could piss off anyone in H-D corporate because he was hard to work with.  I find it more realistic that EB pissed off HD because he was driven to create the best and pushed the performance envelope of any HD product ever to come out.  With every product he released he made HD look like crap without saying a word.  He went against HD’s corporate mantra, which was to sell product on the basis of name recognition and nostalgia, rather than sell a product because it is better and innovative than the others.  Buell’s products had substance even down to its Accessories.  They all had a function.  Rarely did Buell sell anything that had no purpose other than to make you look bad-ass.  His bikes embodied the same philosophy—form followed function for the sake of a performance advantage.  

Anyway, I’m glad you are having success with your dealings with HD.  I will say this—don’t expect anything from a corporation like that.  At any moment, they can pull the rug from underneath you.  It’s in their culture.    

[Rogue]

The Buell ECM seems to be tricker with add-on devices than other bikes Rogue.  PC abandoned the one for the XB and some people are running approximate versions, and getting engine warning lights for O2 sensor always rich.  

Did you have an aftermarket system on the VFR or was it stock?  Honda are usually pretty good with tuning.

The VFR800 has stock everything except for the PCIII.  The PCIII came with the O2 Sensor plugs to disconnect it from the "loop".  No more emission-related programming to spoil the fun and the driveability of the motor.

[Bueller]

Bueller,
I'd be very curious to see your fix.  Several companies have taken a shot at 1125 rewinds with mixed results.  I agree that the super think coatings tend to hold in heat.

08 stators are rated at 432W and are solid.  09s are 520w and obviously generate more heat than can be managed.  Rewinding an 09 stator to 08 specs has been discussed quite a few times.  But there is more to it.  In addition to the 08 stator generating less heat, it is also a more effective heat sink.  The 08 spreads the heat across 18 poles, while the 09 has only 12 poles.  The 08 has more surface area to dissapate heat.  So, even if the 09 is rewound to near 432W, each pole will need to handle more heat than on a 08 stator.

Comparing the 2 side by side.   The 08 is clearly of higher quality:
08 - Machine wound, 18 pole, made in Croatia, looks just like other Rotax stators.
09 - Hand wound, 12 pole, not stamped with a country of origin (which probably means made in USA), looks just like other HD stators.

I'm sure there is a story behind that, and it ends with trying to cut costs, which is a goal for most manufacturing processes.

There were many articles on BadWeb about 08 batteries going flat in short periods with a bike not riden.  The higher output on 09 models was supposed to address that, and I am a believer that Buell attempted to address problems with every model they released.  I'd heard that the 08 stator was the highest output that Rotax recommended so Buell looked elsewhere, but the Buell world is full of whispers.

The 09 stator is 5x the price of other Buell / H-D stators.  Added to the cost of warranty replacements and the cost of paying dealers to install the bandaid harness upgrade it didn't meet any objective to cut costs.  It is possible that the retail value of the stators that H-D end up putting on my bike under warranty may exceed what I paid for the bike new.

The rewind I'm talking about doesn't look at the 08 spec. From what you have said it seems like the 08 is in everyway higher quality.  The rewind is to make the 09 stator more robust.  By using thinner wire the output is reduced and so it the heat.  The only place it is noticible is at idle where the charging drops to the high 12V.  Once you are riding you are in the high 13V - 14V output range.

[Bueller]

If you read/watch how EB behaves in public when asked about his relationship with H-D, he is always extremely gracious and political.  I find it hard to believe that someone like that could piss off anyone in H-D corporate because he was hard to work with.  I find it more realistic that EB pissed off HD because he was driven to create the best and pushed the performance envelope of any HD product ever to come out.  With every product he released he made HD look like crap without saying a word.  He went against HD’s corporate mantra, which was to sell product on the basis of name recognition and nostalgia, rather than sell a product because it is better and innovative than the others.  Buell’s products had substance even down to its Accessories.  They all had a function.  Rarely did Buell sell anything that had no purpose other than to make you look bad-ass.  His bikes embodied the same philosophy—form followed function for the sake of a performance advantage.  

+1,

But I wonder if he was always privately considered gracious and polite in the eyes of some of the board.  His reputation is to push what he believes.

One article I read on the Blast considered that Buell was being seriously ripped off in their production.  If the article is to be believed, the bike was fixed price and H-D engineers added to the scope without the price.  The article said that the Blast engine cost more to produce than Buell were being paid for it.  What was learned from the Blast was fed back into the XB so it wasn't lost, but basically the model was for H-D's perceived market gap.

H-D may have saved Buell but it couldn't be a marriage made in heaven.  EB has shown a lot of guts in starting again instead of waiting out retirement.  Most of us hope it pays off.

[Rogue]

Bueller, if I had that extra cash I would be in line to buy the 1190RS just to spite H-D.  In any case it is a great sportbike that is, as Cycle World described: a Superbike in streetbike trim.  Nice one and it vindicated Buell's philosophy that H-D so readily suppressed.  If you remember the article, H-D was so deftly afraid of competing with the Japanese sportbike manufacturers that they prevented Buell from putting a full fairing on the 1125R.  

What were they so afraid of?  Competition?  Go figure!  That is the corporate mentality in the motor company.  Fear of the competition.  That is not a mind set of a winner.  EB and his team had the goal of dominating the competition and when unshackled they proved they could.  That is what I refer to as the American Can-Do spirit.  I'm sure you can appreciate that as I believe Australians have this spirit alive and well within its people.  The Aussies don't like to take shit and that's what makes them a leader in their region who can stand up to others like China and India as well as Japan.  H-D's tactic whenever they are faced with stiff competition is to cry and whine about unfair competition from Japan then run to our government for help.  That is not a company I want to buy products from because the only team that had the true courage and capability to stand up and be heard in a tough market was the team they cut.  

Anyway, I believe H-D's handling of Buell and his team as well as Buell's faithful following will come back to haunt them someday soon.  Such short sightedness is no longer tolerated in today's globalized world.  You only have to look at GM, Ford, and Chrysler to realize this.  Even a giant like GM is no match for market forces.  

Finally, those who have met EB have all come back amazed at how genuine and generous he is.  Even moto journalists can't help but like the guy.  Someone like that can't be a jerk at work!    Demanding, maybe....but someone to get pissed off at, I don't think so.  Someone to respect and aspire to be, absolutely!  You don't generate that much goodwill be burning bridges.      

[Squidbuzz]

So back to open/closed ECM stuff.  Which tune is used from the factory?  Because the stock pipe and ECM aren't too bad.

[Bueller]

So back to open/closed ECM stuff.  Which tune is used from the factory?  Because the stock pipe and ECM aren't too bad.

The factory has to meet emissions standards so it has to be a closed loop tune.

You're right - the factory tune isn't a bad tune.  It will have been developed by Daniel Hurda, a tuning guru and in particular the Buell tuning guru.

It is a tune that optimally balances performance and compliance.

The Buell mufflers are good too.

[Brad1445]

Who did the firs 2008 tune that was on the first bikes sold?