Would you recommend someone to buy a Buell now?

[Squidbuzz]

I will say this, thanks to all.  This has been and is, one of the more interesting threads I have read on ST.N.

Brad, thanks for being civil with us pod lovers.  Everyone else, kudos to you also.

My '09 Uly has been a challenge this year.  Rear bearing failure at 27K, should have replaced them at 17K.  Broken belt.  hhmm... I guess too many holeshots.  Now the front bearing at 37K.  Not to mention my fun with Twin Motorcycles Torque Hammer muffler and their ECM reprogramming.

[Bueller]

I did my first set of wheel bearings - front and rear at 24,000 km.  Second set at 38,000 km and a set of rears at 52,000 km.  I don't pressure wash the bike.  I ride all weather but it is parked undercover almost everywhere.

Belts have lasted 24,000 km.

Just noting - not complaining.  I haven't had much trouble and the bike is cheap to run.

I've got a TorqueHammer SquidBuzz.  I've also sold quite a few.  I haven't had any problems with the tunes - people love them - but I went through a stage where they were expecting the side-stand switch - which doesn't come on AUS models.  What problems did you have?  They should have sorted it, they are really good with support and backing their products.

[Tpoppa]

  Clocked 1400+ miles on the xb this weekend, most West Virginia/Virginia mountain twisties.

That is one of the best, least known areas to ride.  I'd actually prefer a trip there to deals gap.  Did you ride the mountain pass on 33?  That is one of my all time favorite stretches of asphalt.

[Rogue]

KeS is spot on.

HD will NOT replace the 2009 charging system with 2008 parts under warranty.  I have read documentation from HD to this point.

Just to clarify, I never said H-D will replace '09 stators with '08's.  If you re-read my post I said replacing '09 stators with '08's stators is the only known resolution to the issue.  Quite a few '09 owners have done this with success.  

H-D prefers to replace an '09 stator with another '09 stator that will fail eventually.  Talk about being stupid.  That's like having a failed kidney and replacing it with another kidney that will eventually fail again.  They are doing this until warranty runs out and the owner is on their own.  Typical H-D mentality.

[Squidbuzz]

Bueller, as you know, I have a tendency to try and be unique and that is why I went with the Torque Hammer from Twin Motorcycles.

I ordered the muffler and the over the internet tune with adapter cable.  

The ordering part was tough because their website didn't like my credit card.  I had to get that straightened out on my end.  Just a pain.

Everything arrives and looks good.  My friend's son who is MMI certified starts installing the new pipe.  He gets half way through and finds the header to muffler pipe is for a big header, not stock.  ugh..  He has to put all the stock parts back on.

I email Twin and the correct pipe is sent.

The installation happens and the one thing that I notice is that the out pipe is kinda high.  Twin's suggestion is to slightly turn the muffler so that the exhaust isn't spraying on the passengers foot.  I haven't done that yet, but needs to be done.

Coordinating the ECM remap was interesting since I'm in the States.  After a few emails and days, it gets coordinated.  4am install on my end.  The install wasn't smooth because their remapping software didn't like running on my netbook because of the smaller display.  In watching it, things didn't look well, but they assured me that everything was ok.

The bike ran like crap.  Super rich.  Gas mileage went from 40+ mph to about 32 mph.  Not good.  I ask Twin about it and I am assured that everything is ok.  The bike is running so rich that the swing arm is turning black from the exhaust.  Twin is stating that I must have an exhaust gasket problem or some other type of intake leak.  Something other than their stuff.

I go to Buell Homecoming and Erik himself gives the smell from my bike a wrinkled nose look.

I mention this to Twin to no avail.  I decide drastic measures are needed.  I buy an EBR ECM for a pipe that is similiar.  The rich smell goes away and the mileage comes back.  Bike runs better, but still isn't right.  Therefore proving that I don't have a leak or something else bothering my engine.

I suggest to Twin that I should send the ECM to them and they agree.  This is now about 3 months in to this project.  I send the ECM to Yurrup via UPS.  Expensive, but worth it.  I didn't want my ECM to get lost.

Dris at Twin says that there was a problem with the programming and he is unsure why.  Seems he made a program change and my ECM didn't like it.  So 10 days later, he sends an ECM back to me.

MUCH better.  The bike sounds better, smells better and over all performs better.  I only have 2 tanks of gas on the new ECM so I don't have a good feel yet for the gas milage.  It is up from their previous Twin tune, but not up to EBR's tune.

So there is some of my story on getting my Torque Hammer and tune running.

[Bueller]

Just to clarify, I never said H-D will replace '09 stators with '08's.  If you re-read my post I said replacing '09 stators with '08's stators is the only known resolution to the issue.  Quite a few '09 owners have done this with success.  

H-D prefers to replace an '09 stator with another '09 stator that will fail eventually.  Talk about being stupid.  That's like having a failed kidney and replacing it with another kidney that will eventually fail again.  They are doing this until warranty runs out and the owner is on their own.  Typical H-D mentality.

My 1125R is on its third stator.  H-D Australia considered my request for an 08 replacement.  The reply sounds like it came from the US.  ... not tested... I could do it at my own expense but the electricals would not be covered by warranty ...

I have 15 months warranty left.  See if they think the same when I'm on my 6th or 7th.  Anyway there is a guy here successfully rewinding them.  I have that as an option after warranty.
Posted on: 21 September 2011, 20:46:09The current strategy is pushing a latent defect class action.  There is a solution.  Put in the charging system that was approved by the engine manufacturer, so there is a clear case for lemon law.

[Bueller]

I've had a few mistakes with them as well SquidBuzz but they have always sorted it.  Lately it has been running pretty smoothly with them.  They are getting more experienced, and their heart and mind are in the right place.

I've been through dozens of net downloads with them.

It is an open loop tune.  You will lose mileage over stock, but when it is running right it just purs.  I have an 07 so I could modify the enrichment and take the AF from 13.5:1 to 13.9:1, and now it gets pretty close to stock consumption and still purs and runs cool.

[Squidbuzz]

Yeah, my thought is to save up and buy a programmable kit from EBR and then take the bike to my normal shop, Suburban Harley, and have them retune it.

Time will tell.

But the new programming and pipe pull like hell between 5K and 7K RPM.  WHOA!  Much fun!

[Rogue]

I have 15 months warranty left.  See if they think the same when I'm on my 6th or 7th.  Anyway there is a guy here successfully rewinding them.  I have that as an option after warranty.

Aren't you getting tired of taking it back to the dealer for a new stator?

Personally, I would just have it rewound and enjoy the rest of my life.  

[Squidbuzz]

It is an open loop tune.  

What exactly does that mean?

[Bueller]

What exactly does that mean?

The O2 sensor is disabled - so no feedback.  The O2 sensor is primarily to meet emissions.  It does help with altitude compensation, but in Australia for example I couldn't find an altitude high enough to make a difference with that tune.  The tune is better at altitude than the add on tuning devices like Power Commander, Dobeck or Poweriser - which compensate in limited bands.

When the O2 sensor is enabled the fuel scaling is enabled.  The scaling takes a sample in a limited range of RPM and throttle position at steady revs, and then determines the percentage that the rear fuel map is over or under the emissions limit at that range, and then adds that percentage to the front and rear fuel maps to decide how long the injectors should be pumping fuel during a cycle.  This is closed loop.  It is difficult to get a good closed loop good tune because when you roll on you will use the map + fuel scaling, when you are at steady revs you will use the O2 sensor to decide how much fuel to deliver.  Transitioning between the two can lead to hiccups and hesitation.

A map is just a lookup table that gives the amount of fuel to deliver for a given throttle position and RPM.  This is what gets tuned to a new muffler.  The scaling factor is applied to the map at non-steady revs or when the revs are outside of the range where the O2 sensor is used to determine the mixture.

The open loop tune aims to deliver the same fuel mixture across the whole rev range.  It eliminates the transitions between O2 sensor and map so the bike runs smoother.  It delivers a bit more fuel so the bike runs cooler.  The cost of this is higher fuel consumption over stock.  It quite often leads to lower fuel consumption than running an after-market muffler without having the bike tuned.  A bike that is running hot and lean at some revs may suffer from excessive fuel consumption.  

[Bueller]

Aren't you getting tired of taking it back to the dealer for a new stator?

Personally, I would just have it rewound and enjoy the rest of my life.  

I don't have much option.  If I change the alternator I miss out on warranty of the entire electricals.  A friend just had his harness replaced under warranty to solve a mysterious gremlin.  I wouldn't want to be paying for something like that.

I'll look at the charging if I need to when the bike comes out of warranty.  H-D may have a solution by then.  They aren't as black as we sometimes paint them.

[kevin_stevens]

I don't have much option.  If I change the alternator I miss out on warranty of the entire electricals.  A friend just had his harness replaced under warranty to solve a mysterious gremlin.  I wouldn't want to be paying for something like that.

I'll look at the charging if I need to when the bike comes out of warranty.  H-D may have a solution by then.  They aren't as black as we sometimes paint them.

+1

But the problem in the meantime is that I can now not consider my 1125 a sport-touring machine, because there is quite a bit of empirical evidence that it may experience a total charging system failure at any random moment.  

KeS

[Tpoppa]

With the harness upgrade, I think it's unlikely that the stator will fail without warning.

If you are going to have problems, it's more likely that the harness will starve the motorcycle for power at idle and drain the battery.  When this happens, the symptons are very close to a stator failure.  A lot of issues have been misdiagnosed as a result.

If a leg of the stator does fail, you could always bypass the harness upgrade and run on the other 2 legs.  This can be done without tools.  That should get you home.

Perhaps EBR or HD, or someone else will release a proper fix.  In the mean time, I bought this to use as a ST and that's how it'll be used.

[Rogue]

When the O2 sensor is enabled the fuel scaling is enabled.  The scaling takes a sample in a limited range of RPM and throttle position at steady revs, and then determines the percentage that the rear fuel map is over or under the emissions limit at that range, and then adds that percentage to the front and rear fuel maps to decide how long the injectors should be pumping fuel during a cycle.  This is closed loop.  It is difficult to get a good closed loop good tune because when you roll on you will use the map + fuel scaling, when you are at steady revs you will use the O2 sensor to decide how much fuel to deliver.  Transitioning between the two can lead to hiccups and hesitation.

Great write up Bueller.

On my VFR800, the transition between closed/open loop made the bike surge at constant throttle openings curing cruise or low speed.  Cruise can be 80 mph and it was tricky to maintain that speed consistently due the surging as the engine would go into closed loop and lean the mixture so the engine would lose power and slow the bike down.  I would then compensate by opening up the throttle more, then repeat.  Very annoying.  When I put my PCIII on my VFR, it literally eliminated the Oxygen Sensor connection, making the bike open loop at all times.  No more surging, smoother power, same fuel consumption.  

[Rogue]

I'll look at the charging if I need to when the bike comes out of warranty.  H-D may have a solution by then.  They aren't as black as we sometimes paint them.

Yes they are.  

The way they treated EB and Buell owners, yes they are.  Maybe at the time they purchased Buell back in the 1990's, they had good intentions and were looking towards their future.  But that was then and this is now.  We are dealing with a corporation that is only interested in one thing:  making the most profits off of existing customers by selling products below par.  EB and his team were their polar opposite--they were interested in building and selling the best bike they could build and taking on the world.  That is why their cultures collided and H-D management, with the approval of their current BOD allowed Wandel to get rid of Buell.

If HD really wanted to take care of existing Buell customers, they would NOT be replacing your stator with the same defective stator and stringing you out until your warranty runs out.  You think HD is looking for a solution to this issue?  I’ll be my house they are not!  They washed their hands of Buell.  Period.  Your only alternative is to put an ’08 stator, or wait until EBC markets a fix.

[Bueller]

I have a fix. I tried to get some 2009 stator irons so I could start an exchange service.  The repairer is keen.

The re-manufacturer is winding the stators with thinner wire and using a more resilient coating, but not one of the super coatings that keep too much heat in.  They are triple dipping them.  So far no failures.  I'll be able to get one for $200 once warranty is over.  If I can push latent defect on to H-D I'll do that instead.  They are making this decision.

At the same time they were good with their replies about the matter.  They gave us 1 year extended warranty for free - the decision came about 6 months after I'd bought the bike.  It is more than a dump Buell attitude.

I've wondered if EB pulled an attitude that pissed off some of the board.  The squash an insect mentality can go with something that is annoying.  From what I have read EB is a really driven person.  The Blast coffee table may not have been something that appealed to H-D.

Changing stators at an average span of 5,000 km for the next 2 years may prompt some re-think on the stators.
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 20:41:18

+1

But the problem in the meantime is that I can now not consider my 1125 a sport-touring machine, because there is quite a bit of empirical evidence that it may experience a total charging system failure at any random moment.  

KeS

I've got roadside assistance Kevin

I just have to change the stator with the oil and it all works.  I am riding 16000km to the Buell Muster in a couple of weeks and I don't expect any hassels. All up it will be around a 4000km round trip.  
I only do a small amount of city riding on it, and that is what I suspect is hard on the stator.
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 20:56:36

With the harness upgrade, I think it's unlikely that the stator will fail without warning.

If you are going to have problems, it's more likely that the harness will starve the motorcycle for power at idle and drain the battery.  When this happens, the symptons are very close to a stator failure.  A lot of issues have been misdiagnosed as a result.

If a leg of the stator does fail, you could always bypass the harness upgrade and run on the other 2 legs.  This can be done without tools.  That should get you home.

Perhaps EBR or HD, or someone else will release a proper fix.  In the mean time, I bought this to use as a ST and that's how it'll be used.

I'm sort of there with you Toppa.  I think I can disconnect the upgrade relay and get two of the windings back.  It's short term because one of them is going to fail soon after.  One of my Laverdas wouldn't run at high revs on two windings, but the 1125R sort of can.  Its when the relay cuts in and takes it down to one winding that I have trouble.

There has been talk of mis-diagnosis. but when I contacted EB Racing one time they said the only cure they knew of was a 2008 alternator. They have virtually conceded that it is a problem.

When my dealer was confirming the failure they held the throttle at 4000 RPM until the temp hit 100C.  You could smell electrical burning on the stator side.

I think you are right about the possibility of H-D finding a solution.  If latent defect doesn't cover the bike then our lemon law might.  They don't want to be buying hundreds of bikes back just so I can buy a Wakan.  
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 21:09:05

Great write up Bueller.

On my VFR800, the transition between closed/open loop made the bike surge at constant throttle openings curing cruise or low speed.  Cruise can be 80 mph and it was tricky to maintain that speed consistently due the surging as the engine would go into closed loop and lean the mixture so the engine would lose power and slow the bike down.  I would then compensate by opening up the throttle more, then repeat.  Very annoying.  When I put my PCIII on my VFR, it literally eliminated the Oxygen Sensor connection, making the bike open loop at all times.  No more surging, smoother power, same fuel consumption.  

The Buell ECM seems to be tricker with add-on devices than other bikes Rogue.  PC abandoned the one for the XB and some people are running approximate versions, and getting engine warning lights for O2 sensor always rich.  

Did you have an aftermarket system on the VFR or was it stock?  Honda are usually pretty good with tuning.

Some of the systems people have contacted me about on an 1125 have given serious AFV instability.  When they roll on they don't know how much power they will get.  HMF is one that comes to mind, but Jardine as well.  EB Racing ECMs worked with them.  The HMF had to send his back for adjustment but they got there.
Posted on: 23 September 2011, 21:24:57Also Toppa I agree about the warning.  The charging seems to drop gradually for 2 or 3 weeks before it actually fails.  I knew it was on the way out last time.  I keep the instrument display on temp / charging all the time so I monitor it.

[Tpoppa]

Bueller,
I'd be very curious to see your fix.  Several companies have taken a shot at 1125 rewinds with mixed results.  I agree that the super think coatings tend to hold in heat.

08 stators are rated at 432W and are solid.  09s are 520w and obviously generate more heat than can be managed.  Rewinding an 09 stator to 08 specs has been discussed quite a few times.  But there is more to it.  In addition to the 08 stator generating less heat, it is also a more effective heat sink.  The 08 spreads the heat across 18 poles, while the 09 has only 12 poles.  The 08 has more surface area to dissapate heat.  So, even if the 09 is rewound to near 432W, each pole will need to handle more heat than on a 08 stator.

Comparing the 2 side by side.   The 08 is clearly of higher quality:
08 - Machine wound, 18 pole, made in Croatia, looks just like other Rotax stators.
09 - Hand wound, 12 pole, not stamped with a country of origin (which probably means made in USA), looks just like other HD stators.

I'm sure there is a story behind that, and it ends with trying to cut costs, which is a goal for most manufacturing processes.
 

[kevin_stevens]

I've got roadside assistance Kevin

I just have to change the stator with the oil and it all works.  I am riding 16000km to the Buell Muster in a couple of weeks and I don't expect any hassels. All up it will be around a 4000km round trip.  
I only do a small amount of city riding on it, and that is what I suspect is hard on the stator.

Cool, how well does that work down in Baja?

When I see something like "I just have to change the stator with the oil", that answers the OP's question better than anything I could type myself.  

KeS

[Rogue]

Cool, how well does that work down in Baja?
KeS

In Baja, Mexico, Pepito and his cousin will come pick you up.  

No seriously, whatever the case roadside assistance is not a good option but it's better than nothing.  The real solution is to have a proper stator that will no fail so you wont' need any assistance.  I hear yah on that.