The return of the $20 fill-up

[gritsngravy]

If you think the Scots do mass transportation better then take a look at this map of railway coverage of Scotland (and the rest of the UK)

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/Network_Rail_national_map.pdf

Considering the population of Scotland the rail map you provided looks damn good and from personal experience it worked beautifully.   Thing is fuel is not gonna be getting any cheaper for anyone except certain countries that produce oil.    That being the case be glad you at least have bus service to take you to a train to get to work & if you must use a vehicle the UK has many more fuel efficient choices than the U.S.     $8/gal sucks but despite your experiences in the US we are a nowhere near prepared to move people as efficiently as the UK & Europe.   Fuel hasn't even hit $5 gal here and it's a HUGE deal for many.   $8/gal would cause riots and mass hysteria in the US.    

 

[Sport-Touring]

[Rogue]

My wife & I have had great experiences while in the UK, both in and around London and up north.   Maybe the Scots do it better?  

Grits, the grass always seems to be greener on the other side.

I think what BBB is trying to say is that Mass Transportation is really good in Europe if you fall within the routes.  However, there are a lot of people who do not fall within easy distance of a rail system.  

I believe this is true in cities like NY or San Francisco, where there is a good rail network.  It's great if you are in the city.  Although even then, you may have to walk a few blocks.  In many other places, or let's say you are 15-30 miles out, it's not so convenient.

[ceilingcat]

I returned from the UK on Friday - paid about 150.00 for a tank of diesel in my rental car.  Was like....wow this is awesome.  I think it worked out to $11 / gal or so.  

[UFO]

The issue of mass transit is certainly relevant as part of the reason your fuel cost so much is because of the way it is taxed. Some of those very fuel taxes are used to pay for public transportation.

Have you been to the U.S.? I spent 2 years in the U.K. and have visited many places in Europe. The practicality of mass transit in Europe is much greater by far than it is here and I think the data would prove that out.

The only place I've used public transit is in big cities (NYC, London, etc).  Public transportation in most of the US (and definitely outside of large metro areas) sucks or doesn't exist.

For example, if I used public transit from where I lived now it would still require me to drive somewhere, find somewhere to park, then hop buses (not even sure one comes near my work), then perhaps walk or bike the rest of the way.  I bet a good 4 hours of my day would be spent trying to use public transit just to get to my job.

Not very efficient.

[CLAY]

You nailed it- it's the geography.  Our country and cities are just far more spread out, making mass transit not nearly as effective.  Our major city centers are spread out far more than Europe's.

[JReazor]

You nailed it- it's the geography.  Our country and cities are just far more spread out, making mass transit not nearly as effective.  Our major city centers are spread out far more than Europe's.

I don't buy that for a second. The fact that our urban centers are more spread out should make mass transit more important. The potential gains are much bigger.

We have plenty of smart people in the States. We should be able to figure this out. Mass transit doesn't work here because most of the population isn't interested in making it work.

[motomem]

Thumbing it would be the only way I could get to work. Grey Hound bus stops at the nearest town 8 miles away about twice a day.
Bottom line we want cheap gas and we want to live as far away from the city as we can afford.
Public transit will require enough riders to at least break even. We must give up our cars and move closer to our work.
I will move closer when I can't afford to live in a quiet safe place anymore.

[atadaskew]

 Mass transit doesn't work here because most of the population isn't interested in making it work.

Yep.
Unfortunately there is a stigma attached to mass transit in many US cities.
i.e. those losers can't afford a car.

[cultureslayer]

I don't buy that for a second. The fact that our urban centers are more spread out should make mass transit more important. The potential gains are much bigger.

We have plenty of smart people in the States. We should be able to figure this out. Mass transit doesn't work here because most of the population isn't interested in making it work.

I could take a bus to campus, but I'd have to walk or bicycle a mile on one end and about half a mile on the other, plus there's no bicycle racks on the buses here.  Add that it's $2 each way, and I'm better off having the extra hour worth of time for about the same price (because I have to have a car and insurance anyway to get to the grocery store).

The problem is that housing isn't dense enough to support a system worth using.  as it is the buses run every hour and could be 10 minutes early or late.  That's potentially 20 minutes spent waiting before I even get on the thing.  Or I could just take the car/bike and know it will take me 25 minutes door to door.

[JReazor]

I could take a bus to campus, but I'd have to walk or bicycle a mile on one end and about half a mile on the other, plus there's no bicycle racks on the buses here.  Add that it's $2 each way, and I'm better off having the extra hour worth of time for about the same price (because I have to have a car and insurance anyway to get to the grocery store).

The problem is that housing isn't dense enough to support a system worth using.  as it is the buses run every hour and could be 10 minutes early or late.  That's potentially 20 minutes spent waiting before I even get on the thing.  Or I could just take the car/bike and know it will take me 25 minutes door to door.

Yep, right now we have a broken, inefficient system and it will stay that way as long as we remain uninterested in fixing it.

[Rogue]

We have plenty of smart people in the States. We should be able to figure this out. Mass transit doesn't work here because most of the population isn't interested in making it work.

It's easy to figure it out.  But do YOU want to pay for it?  Do you REALLY want all those buses, and smaller public transport vehicles running around your neighborhood?  Go to any third world country where people can't normlaly afford a car, not even one car.  They have buses, big, small, medium, they also have sidecar tricycles, then they masses of people walking around.

Like I said, be careful what you wish for.

Keep the efficient rail system in the tightly packed cities.  Leave the 'burbs alone except for the occassional bus route.  If you want to save on gas, ride a scooter.  If you don't want to, you're going to have to deal with traffic in a cage.  

[gritsngravy]

Grits, the grass always seems to be greener on the other side.

I think what BBB is trying to say is that Mass Transportation is really good in Europe if you fall within the routes.  However, there are a lot of people who do not fall within easy distance of a rail system.  

I believe this is true in cities like NY or San Francisco, where there is a good rail network.  It's great if you are in the city.  Although even then, you may have to walk a few blocks.  In many other places, or let's say you are 15-30 miles out, it's not so convenient.

My point is at least BBB has routes available to him, maybe not door to door VIP service but he has something to work with.    I found the bus & train service to be much better in the UK than in the U.S.      It's not just me, it's my spouse, who grew up in Ayershire, lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh.   It's my Scottish nephews, one who now works for Apple and one who comes to the U.S.  regularly on business.     Those guys always mention the lack of a decent rail service in the U.S., which is itself ironic as hell considering the mighty US rail lines helped populate the West.  

BBB knows where Ayreshire and Killwinning (sp?) are located and we literally were able to leave our families home, walk to a train station and from there go to Glasgow, Edinburgh , London and if we wanted visit France for dinner....all on clean trains that ran on time.    Even if you live waaaaay north at least you can get to some sort of mass transit system.  

I understand being bitter about $8/gal gas...errr petrol but the UK is small compared to the US and their transit system is simply more accessable on the whole than the transit system in the U.S.    

[CLAY]

I don't buy that for a second. The fact that our urban centers are more spread out should make mass transit more important. The potential gains are much bigger.

We have plenty of smart people in the States. We should be able to figure this out. Mass transit doesn't work here because most of the population isn't interested in making it work.

I'm not saying it won't work- I'm saying it won't work as well as Europe (not as effective).  In Europe it's cheap and easy- city centres (note EU spelling  ) are more compact.  To even get to a stop in this country usually requires a car ride to get there.  

You don't have to buy it. Simply look at a population density map and compare.    If it were possible for me to have ever taken a train or bus to work, I would have done it.  

[JReazor]

It's easy to figure it out.  But do YOU want to pay for it?  Do you REALLY want all those buses, and smaller public transport vehicles running around your neighborhood?  Go to any third world country where people can't normlaly afford a car, not even one car.  They have buses, big, small, medium, they also have sidecar tricycles, then they masses of people walking around.

Like I said, be careful what you wish for.

Keep the efficient rail system in the tightly packed cities.  Leave the 'burbs alone except for the occassional bus route.  If you want to save on gas, ride a scooter.  If you don't want to, you're going to have to deal with traffic in a cage.  

We have those buses in my neighborhood now. They're mostly empty because they're confusing and slow. Existing mass transit sucks. I won't argue that.

It needs a complete rethink. We just don't care enough to do it.

[Rogue]

...the lack of a decent rail service in the U.S., which is itself ironic as hell considering the mighty US rail lines helped populate the West.  

I hear you.

The "mighty US rail line" was built for one thing:  to move goods across cities in the fastest manner.  It still does.

But that's the extent of it.  The US chose Interstate Hwys as the most efficient way of transporting masses of people because most everyone here is expected to have at least one car.  That and we have the space for it and yes, distances are just that much greater.  California has been trying to build an effective light rail system for decades.  They have built it but it's still very limited and services only major metro areas.  It's only convenient to those within the routes.  California also wants to build a high speed rail from LA to Sacramento.  Why?  I don't know!  Flying is so much more efficient!

[JReazor]

I'm not saying it won't work- I'm saying it won't work as well as Europe (not as effective).  In Europe it's cheap and easy- city centres (note EU spelling  ) are more compact.  To even get to a stop in this country usually requires a car ride to get there.  

You don't have to buy it. Simply look at a population density map and compare.    If it were possible for me to have ever taken a train or bus to work, I would have done it.  

You're correct in that Europe's mass transit system won't work as well here as it does there but that doesn't mean that mass transit can't work.

An interconnected hub and spoke rail system could work if the stations were put in the right place, the right infrastructure were built around them and fares were low. Sure, you may still have to drive to the station but if the startion is safe, well lit, has free parking and is easy to get to people would be more likely to use them. That clearly won't work in the middle of Wyoming where cows out number people but traffic probably isn't much of an issue there. It would work in the outer 'burbs of second and third tier cities provided that you could get to where you're going once in the city.

[stew71]

Sacramento has a fairly decent mass transit system, called RT. It has the standard light rail lines going North - South and West - East through most of the major communities throughout the county. It's easy to pick up a bus near a rail stop. It only costs about $2 - $4 per day, depending on your commute.

Now the problem. It takes almost an hour each way to get to work or home. I'm not spending 2 hours every day on my commute, even if someone else is doing the driving. I'll pay the $20 it takes to fill up the FJR each week and be at the office in 20 mins.

Besides, way too many of the transit riders have no idea how to use a bar of soap. And putting up with some of the crazy people who ride the trains gets old after a while.

And don't even get me started with the foul-mouthed urban punks heading out to see their probation officer or drug dealer.

[Rogue]

Any time you're dealing with the public you will get all kinds of people.

When I was a kid growing up in SoCal, I took the bus to get to places.  I can't say I liked it much.  You just never knew whether it was going to be okay or irritating depending on who got on the bus.

[gritsngravy]

Sacramento has a fairly decent mass transit system, called RT. It has the standard light rail lines going North - South and West - East through most of the major communities throughout the county. It's easy to pick up a bus near a rail stop. It only costs about $2 - $4 per day, depending on your commute.

Now the problem. It takes almost an hour each way to get to work or home. I'm not spending 2 hours every day on my commute, even if someone else is doing the driving. I'll pay the $20 it takes to fill up the FJR each week and be at the office in 20 mins.

Besides, way too many of the transit riders have no idea how to use a bar of soap. And putting up with some of the crazy people who ride the trains gets old after a while.





I tried the light rail a few times and it was a long slow journey with a long walk to the rail station.  (no bus service)   Agree with the low lifes too, maybe I'm just getting old but damn the crap that comes out of some of the kids mouths these days.........    Seriously makes Sac look as though it deserves its crappy reputation.  
And don't even get me started with the foul-mouthed urban punks heading out to see their probation officer or drug dealer.

[BBB]

Grits, the grass always seems to be greener on the other side.

I think what BBB is trying to say is that Mass Transportation is really good in Europe if you fall within the routes.  However, there are a lot of people who do not fall within easy distance of a rail system.  

I believe this is true in cities like NY or San Francisco, where there is a good rail network.  It's great if you are in the city.  Although even then, you may have to walk a few blocks.  In many other places, or let's say you are 15-30 miles out, it's not so convenient.

Nail on the head Rogue. The system does work well if you are on a route but if not you might as well be on the moon.