Need Advice On Manager Relations In Corporate Environment

[Papa Lazarou]

  Anybody else with first hand experience in this matter?

me  too

also check out: http://timfieldfoundation.org/what-is-bullying

[zer0netgain]

I didn't even have to look at the member to know who posted this.

I had to deal with a bully in the workplace.

Made the idea of dumping rat poison in his coffee look like a good idea.

[ConPilot1]

Me, I supervise a crew of 7 in my department.

I get loud and turn into a complete asshole when the situation warrants it.
I get the same thing from the higher-ups, so shit rolls downhill.

If I'm getting my ass chewed off for something stupid someone does damn straight you're going to get it back.

My loud knob get's turned up depending on the level of stupidity and negligence that I'm dealing with at a given time.

When everybody does their job and keeps the mistakes down, I leave everybody alone and you don't hear from me, at all.

It all works out in the end.

Who wants to come work for Con??  

[viffergyrl]

Thanks all.

It seems either HR or Director can easily backfire.

My thought was, the HR route is the most effective but it burns ALL bridges as it hurts the Director as well, which is not a route either me or my Staff person want to take.  In either case, one the Mgr finds out it burns that bridge.  My hope is my Staff person goes to the Director and the Dir agrees to work with the Mgr to improve her behavior without actually letting her know the Staff person ratted on her.  Even if there was doubt in her mind, that's enough to prevent retaliation.  In addition, going to the Director might show that my Staff person wants to improve things and not fire anybody.  

It is not only my Staff and I who have noticed the Mgr's. behavior.  Many people have including other Mgrs in other locations.  So this may be a good "heads up" for the Director to do something.

Yes it has been going on for four years.  My Staff person and I have kept our mouths shut because we are do not like to be the one who squealed or be labeled a whiner/complainer.  

The advice from all is greatly appreciated though so keep it coming.  Anybody else with first hand experience in this matter?

Wow. Is it your company's culture to label people as whiner/complainers or squealers when they make a legitimate complaint? If so, it's not a great company. This is a legitimate business issue. You have a right to come to work and not be abused.

As a manager if an employee came to me with a complaint about another manager (regardless of hierarchy), it is my responsibility to bring in HR immediately and address the issue in a timely fashion with discretion and respect. It is HR's job to ensure that there is no retaliation - perceived or otherwise - and that confidentiality is preserved. When dealing with such an emotional person whackjob, it's best to document events before you talk to anybody so as to be seen as rational and objective.

I appreciate the fact that it's not my situation and again I wish you luck in whatever path you take.

Disclaimer: None of the above applies to ConPilot1. Just being clear.  

[county]

4 years is long enough to adapt and too long to complain now....besides, it is not your problem.


(I did recently advise someone in a similar situation to try wearing a Bolo tie...that might help and it couldn't hurt)

[kawazzr]

I have dealt with this on several occasions; on behalf of folks that report to me. As a manager, one of my responsibilities is to ensure a safe work place for my folks. What you describe is referred to as a hostile work environment. Seems silly in the corporate world, but it happens quite often. I would guess that your company has work guidelines that all employees must adhere to. They are referred to Business Conduct Guidelines in my company.

In my experience, the only course of action is for your employee to go directly to HR and formally submit the issue. If this individual treats more than your employee in this manner; it is a company issue. If this individual treats just your employee in this manner; it's even worse as she is being targeted. Either way, it is unacceptable.

What sucks is that many managers/directors and above think corporate America is the military; and all shall bow down to the next person above them. Dueches like you are describing take advantage of that.

[Rogue]

There is zero doubt in my mind that this is an HR issue.  How you get to HR is the question.... or not.  

If you're advising your staff member and stepping away, send them to HR.  If you're staying involved, approach the Director with your staff member.  Explain the situation without sugar coating and give your director the opportunity to invite the conversation with HR.  Now your director is part of a difficult solution and not just another interview candidate if an investigation occurs.  

If HR should not be involved, your Director should be the one to convince you why.  

+1

My Staff and I are forming our strategy and creating a case to present to our Dir.  I feel confident that the Dir will step in to help in order to prevent the HR approach.  If he’s as intelligent as I believe he is (all indications are he is as well as being fair), he will understand that the HR step is the next one if this issue is not resolved without us having to say it.  I believe that stating specific examples as well as the fact that others within and outside our dept. have noticed and brought up this issue with us (not him), will bring urgency into a resolution.  We plan to present our case to the Dir this Friday through a meeting.

I have decided to get involved to bring more weight into it.  My Staff deserves that.  It’s going to be a huge risk but enough is enough.

[Rogue]

Wow. Is it your company's culture to label people as whiner/complainers or squealers when they make a legitimate complaint? If so, it's not a great company. This is a legitimate business issue. You have a right to come to work and not be abused.

I don’t mean to imply that.

My Staff and I don’t like to complain that’s all.  We feel guilty when we call in sick even when we are.  It’s just our work ethic to work hard and complain very little.  Others will be different.  

The bottom line is we like our jobs, we like the people we work for (except this one Mgr we work for directly unfortunately), so we want to keep our jobs.  In my opinion, and I see many disagree, running straight to HR is counter-productive unless you have exhausted all possible legal options.  Because both my Staff and I respect and like our Dir, we want to give him a chance to help us before making it an embarrassment for him if HR got involved.  

Our corporation does have a written policy of required ethical behavior, which protects employees from harassment.  Hence I feel when our Dir hears of this news he will be eager to fix it.  

[Rogue]

I get loud and turn into a complete asshole when the situation warrants it.
I get the same thing from the higher-ups, so shit rolls downhill.

Our higher ups do NOT yell and degrade employees.  Their standards are much higher, which makes it that much more difficult to have a Mgr (who you know is not getting shit) to verbally and mentally abuse you.

[ConPilot1]

Our higher ups do NOT yell and degrade employees.  Their standards are much higher, which makes it that much more difficult to have a Mgr (who you know is not getting shit) to verbally and mentally abuse you.

I do not degrade, neither does my boss. Degrading and getting a little loud is a totally different story.

Mistakes can be very costly in my line of business. I've seen stupid little oversights cost in excess of $50K.

[Yankee Dog]

I do not degrade, neither does my boss. Degrading and getting a little loud is a totally different story.

Mistakes can be very costly in my line of business. I've seen stupid little oversights cost in excess of $50K.

100% inspection is only 80% effective.

People WILL make mistakes. It is management's responsibility to come up with ways to prevent those mistakes. Saying dont do it again or you are out of here is not effective.

[ConPilot1]

100% inspection is only 80% effective.

People WILL make mistakes. It is management's responsibility to come up with ways to prevent those mistakes. Saying dont do it again or you are out of here is not effective.

You are correct at that although I disagree with your percentage ratio's. My department probably runs at a near 98% no-mistake rate.
However, there is also no amount managerial policies, job documentation, or internal rules that will ever replace good old horse sense, skills, and attentiveness to what you're doing.

[gradus]

I do not degrade, neither does my boss. Degrading and getting a little loud is a totally different story.

Mistakes can be very costly in my line of business. I've seen stupid little oversights cost in excess of $50K.

Are your employees allowed to yell back at you?

[ConPilot1]

Are your employees allowed to yell back at you?

They have. People get angry when confronted with their own incompetence and generally do not like to be called on the carpet for anything.

[Bounce]

It's everywhere. I watched one manager who you could hear down the hall when she yelled at any (and every) one. It was the worst I've ever seen (and I've seen a few). Management in this company is highly non-confrontational so let this woman sit in her management position for 10 years (though moving her to different facilities in the commuting area).

I'd take the advice of a second-level manager I had years ago. Document the hell out of each event. Lots of details make it less of a he-said/she-said. When there's a statistically-significant history established, THEN make her case to HR. She should have started this 4 years ago.

[viffergyrl]

I don’t mean to imply that.

My Staff and I don’t like to complain that’s all.  We feel guilty when we call in sick even when we are.  It’s just our work ethic to work hard and complain very little.  Others will be different.  

The bottom line is we like our jobs, we like the people we work for (except this one Mgr we work for directly unfortunately), so we want to keep our jobs.  In my opinion, and I see many disagree, running straight to HR is counter-productive unless you have exhausted all possible legal options.  Because both my Staff and I respect and like our Dir, we want to give him a chance to help us before making it an embarrassment for him if HR got involved.  

Our corporation does have a written policy of required ethical behavior, which protects employees from harassment.  Hence I feel when our Dir hears of this news he will be eager to fix it.  

Thanks for explaining.   Good luck. Let us know how this turns out.

[Flyer]

There are likely significant differences between my Province, and your State, but, as a senior manager in this jurisdiction, this is the proceedure:
The aggrieved should approach the HR manager or supervisor immediately senior to the "subject manager" with documented instances of abuse, bullying, harrassment etc.
It is necessary to explain that this behaviour has been ongoing, persistant, and unrelenting, and makes the aggrieved feel anxious, fearful, nervous, ill, depressed, etc. making the aggrieved's workplace unhealthy.
Document EVERYTHING.
It is HR's duty to investigate the complaint, and unlawful for the employer or manager to retaliate.
There have been some significant settlements awarded here in some cases, though I'm sure that's not the intended result.
Smart superior managers will shortly rectify the problem when made aware, as corportate culture defending such individuals can also be found at fault in actionable cases.  

[county]

My Staff and I

Well, if there are multiple employees involved you will need Bolo ties for all of them....

[Rogue]

There have been some significant settlements awarded here in some cases, though I'm sure that's not the intended result.
Smart superior managers will shortly rectify the problem when made aware, as corportate culture defending such individuals can also be found at fault in actionable cases.  

I'm optimistic that this is what our Dir will do.

Yes, our intention is not to get anyone terminated or get some kind of settlement.  We just want it to stop by changing someone's behavior.

[X1Glider]

I've seen my share of bad bosses but only had 1 myself...a female sexual harrasser.  Normally a 22 year old single male wouldn't have issue with this but she was simply vile.  She made my life miserable for turning her down.  She was a bull dyke man hater to the core but she had no problem with bullying the other drafters and intimidating them into putting out.

What I learned from that 1 bad boss was to keep a ledger of all events.  Date, time, situation, outcome, etc.  The deeper the list goes, the stronger your leg to stand on.  Out of 13 people only myself and one other guy turned her down but all 13 of us got together and reported her to HR because her boss wouldn't buy it.  He knew she was a hard ass but refused to believe we were being sexually harrassed and our lives made miserable every day.  She ended up getting transferred to somewhere in Nebraska.

As for the other people that I'd witnessed the bad treatment of, I learned that HR is rarely your friend in a large corporation.  2 specific people come to mind where HR simply sided with the managers because it is in their best political interest when dealing with bosses at a particular level.  It didn't matter that there were laws protecting these employees from a hostile work environment.  And they were being treated very badly.  Yelling, screaming, degrading them all in front of the whole department.  All these 2 ever did was ask for clarification of what he wanted or simply wanted to do things right.  They took pride in their work.  HR decided to just fire them rather than document the complaints.  No documentation, it never happened.  The bigshot company lawyers were given a heads up and advised HR to enter "insubordination" and "refusal to show up to work" in their files.  Couldn't even get unemployment insurance and took a while to find new jobs.  The company covered it's ass and totally screwed them over.

Sometimes it's better to go to HR, sometimes it's better to go to their superior.  It's a crapshoot.  

All I know is, the first time something happens, the situation needs to be addressed then and there.  When they know you won't tolerate bad treatment, things will change for the better.  Otherwise, you become their bitch and their behavior becomes acceptable.   The longer you wait, the worse it gets and it may get  to the point where you're totally defenseless.