Burning Oil: Is it normal? How much is too much?

[SWriverstone]

I did a search for previous threads on this and didn't find any (but I confess I didn't wade through the 15 pages of search results---I got lazy!   )

The subject of bikes burning oil after a certain age/number of miles has come up often in other discussions. I'm curious about this (and know nothing about it). Specifically...

• Is it perfectly normal for bikes to eventually burn some oil (regardless of amount)?

• What are the thresholds for this? In other words...
     - If a bike starts burning oil at _______ miles, you should be concerned. (Fill in the blank!)
     - How much oil loss is considered bad? (From the "High" to "Low" lines in your sightglass? 1/2 quart or more?)
     - Is *any* amount of oil loss always a sign that something's wrong in the engine?
     - Is any amount of oil loss a sure bet that the engine's going downhill fast and on its last legs?

I mentioned in another thread: with my 2007 Wee Strom (37K miles)...I'll change the oil, top it off to the "High" line in the sightglass...and after maybe 3-4K miles (I don't know how long exactly) I'll notice the oil level has dropped to the "Low" line in the sightglass.

Is this totally normal and no big deal? Or is this an "Oh crap, you better get rid of that bike FAST!" kinda thing?  

Again...just trying to understand how much is too much?

Scott

PS - Even if you're not a motorcycle mechanic or engine expert...post up anyway and let us know if your bike burns any oil with ______ miles on the clock...and when did you first start noticing it?

[Justin]

I don't know if it's normal. I know my bike has 55k on it, and I don't burn a drop between changes. Might just come down to how well the rings were broken in. Mine was broken in at high RPMs on the dyno, so they are seated really well

[veefer800canuck]

1986 VFR750, owned for 14 years and 53,000 kilometers. Never added oil between oilchanges. Ever.

1999 VFR800, owned for 12 years and 80,000+ kilometers. Never added oil between oilchanges. Ever.

That is the extent of my expertise in this area. Carry on.  

[tomek]

It all depends , air vs. water cooled , size of cylinder bore ( singles and 2 cylinders vs multies ) oem pistons vs aftermarket forged ( O.K. Wiseco ) , and yes , some manufactures are better in building bullet motoers then others but I won`t name any names .

My high mileage XX burns no oil whatsoever , but I broke the engine in properly ( pulled wheelie leaving the dealership and and  went many , many times  WOT in  the first couple of hundred miles ) .

Also distinction needs to be made between oil burning and oil evaporation , some evaporation is normal but not all oil are equal in this regard .

Having said engine oil is relatively cheap , set of new pistons , rings , bore job and labor  are  not , so basically forgitabouit and just ride the fricking bike .

[Andrew]

I had to add oil to my old 2 stroke every time I put gas in it

FJR 80k never burned a drop between oil changes. Heck after a while I just stopped checking it, when change time came around still full.

BMW R1100GS (forgot the millage) 1/3 qt every oil change (5k miles)

BMW R1150GSA (75k) 1/2 to 1 qt between oil changes (depends on brand of oil, synth seems to burn less)

Wife's Scion XB (100k) never a drop

[Kneescrubber]

If you're that concerned about it, do a leak down test.

[Rincewind]

I had a 2007 Triumph Tiger 1050 (former demo bike) that burned enough that I had to pack oil on longer trips.  It burned 200-300 ml per 1000 miles.  If the bike burned more than 1-liter per 1000 miles, it would have been considered for warranty repair.  It consumed oil from the beginning and would need top offs to last the 6000 mile oil change interval.  Pressure tests did not show any problem.  It was one of the reasons that I got rid of that bike.  I put a lot of miles on it while it burned oil.

[Kneescrubber]

...Pressure tests did not show any problem...

A compression test won't. That's why I suggested a leak down test. They aren't the same thing.  

[SWriverstone]

Okay...so someone mentioned evaporation as opposed to burning oil. Let's focus on the sight glass scenario: you change the oil and fill it til it's
 Even with the "High" line on the sightglass. 4K miles later, the level has dropped to just above the "Low" line on the sightglass.

Does this count as "burning" oil or evaporation? And you guys who say your bikes never lost a drop---are you saying that after 4K miles the level won't have dropped even 1mm in the sightglass?

Like all oil-related threads, this one seems to have some "slop" in the conversation. LOL

I broke my Wee in with an 800-mile ride home from the dealer. And the way I rode (because somehow I was convinced this was the proper way to do it) was by never holding the RPMs constant---I was constantly accelerating/decelerating between 5K-7500 RPMs (I never ran it WOT... Bt maybe that's considered the proper way to seat rings these days?)

The Wee has an (only slightly modified) SV650 engine, which from all I've heard is pretty legendary for being bulletproof.

[Andrew]

 4K miles later, the level has dropped to just above the "Low" line on the sightglass.
4k and its still in the sight glass = no problem & due for an oil change

Does this count as "burning" oil or evaporation? And you guys who say your bikes never lost a drop---are you saying that after 4K miles the level won't have dropped even 1mm in the sightglass?

Yep thats what I said, The FJR never lost a drop, never had to add oil

[Cablebandit]

If you are burning oil, stuff is wearing out. My oil level didn't drop at all between changes until about 32,000. Then it started burning about half a quart between changes.  The C14's oil level doesn't change at all at this point.

[Kneescrubber]

No offense Scott but you seem to be obsessing over nothing.

Is there a puddle of oil under the bike when you go out to start it in the morning?
Is there a 2 smoke trail from the exhaust?

You need to accept the fact that your engine "uses" some oil. Get over it and ride the damn thing.





And BTW, if it was burning oil you would know it by the smell and look of the exhaust and spark plugs.

[Mastros2]

Doesn't sound like a lot.  I wouldn't worry about it.  By your sight glass, you are losing less than 1/2 quart of oil in 4k miles.  That is nothing on an air cooled bike. I would start to worry at 2 quarts per 4k miles.

[coho]

The service manuals for both of my oilheads say that they can use up to but not more than 0.1L per 100 kilometers and not be out of spec or broken. This is undoubtedly mostly evaporation as the oil is the coolant, but is still oil going away without indicating engine dysfunction.

PS. Actual oil use has been about .5L per 3K miles.

[Cablebandit]

Doesn't sound like a lot.  I wouldn't worry about it.  By your sight glass, you are losing less than 1/2 quart of oil in 4k miles.  That is nothing on an air cooled bike. I would start to worry at 2 quarts per 4k miles.

Problem is his bike isn't air cooled. It should have the same tight tolerances of any other liquid cooled engine.

[garry]

Some bike models just use oil. My KTM uses a half quart over a 3000 mile oil change interval. Always has since new. I just top it off as needed. Seems lots of them do that. My other bikes never used any between changes.

[malbojah]

wish my bike used as little oil as yours does. Mine uses almost 2 quarts every 3000 miles

[SWriverstone]

No offense Scott but you seem to be obsessing over nothing.

I'm not obsessing at all---merely seeking information. When cablebandit said his V-Strom starting burning some oil at around the same mileage as mine, I thought maybe I should at least pay attention to it for a while just to see if mine is doing the same?

After watching it for a while, I noticed it was dropping a bit in the sightglass between oil changes...but that's it. I still ride the bike every day.

So the question popped into my mind: how much can your oil level drop between changes before you should be concerned about it? That's it.

My bike doesn't leak a drop of oil, and my exhaust is completely invisible---no smoke at all. But clearly it's "causing a bit of oil to disappear" so I'm just wondering what the range of possible causes are.

I'll continue riding the bike and plan to keep riding it. I mean, when you get right down to it, if a bike's burning (or "disappearing") oil, there's nothing you can't do about it, right? (Short of a new engine or massive engine overhaul---I mean there are no quick fixes.)

Scott

[Mastros2]

Problem is his bike isn't air cooled. It should have the same tight tolerances of any other liquid cooled engine.

Thought they were aircooled/oilcooled for some reason. Oh well.  

I still wouldn't worry though. That isn't much oil loss.  

[Skee]

My Wee has started consuming enough oil between changes to annoy me.  It now consumes about 200 mL per 1,000 miles.  So I pack a little bottle of oil to top it off on long weekend trips.  Worrying about it now running low on a trip is a PITA.  Spark plug and tail pipe look normal to my untrained eye.  I suspect a large amount of consumption can be attributed to the fact that I wring the livin' snot out of the little bitch when I ride her.  (sorry, didn't mean to get personal.)  I really don't suspect a mechanical problem; cylinder wall scratch or something out of tolerance.  I suspect it will either level off at some point, or I'll rebuild the top end if it gets progressively worse, or just get something else.  It's a f'n Wee for cryin out loud.  

This is the first motorcycle on which I followed the manufacturer's recommended break-in instructions.  Go figure.

[Justin]

This is the first motorcycle on which I followed the manufacturer's recommended break-in instructions.  Go figure.

Well. that's your problem right there  

Of course, that would need a whole new thread  

[SWriverstone]

So what were the manufacturer's break-in instructions Frank? (I don't even remember!) Like I said, I broke mine in with an 800-mile ride, getting revs up to 7-8K and never maintaining constant revs at any RPM.

I've been doing more poking around on other forums (including the two big V-Strom forums)...and the general consensus (right or wrong) seems to be for people to say "WHAT!? You're barely losing 1/4-1/2qt every 3-4K miles??? And you're WORRIED? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

One person said "That's NOTHING." Another said "It's probably just a bit getting blown out the crankcase breather." Another said "Hell, most manufacturers won't even do a warranty repair until you're burning a whole quart every 1K miles."

Granted, some of this might be total BS...but it begs the question: should we all consider a motorcycle that loses ZERO oil in 5K miles "normal"...and one that loses ANY (no matter how little) "flawed?"

I honestly don't know. (Just like none of us ever knows what kind of oil to use even after reading 50-page oil threads, LOL) It sounds a lot like the "when do you change your tires?" threads (some guys ride 'em to the threads...others buy new ones the second the start looking vaguely square).

It's all academic to me, since I can't do anything about it anyway but just check the level now and then. Meanwhile, the bike continues to run (and sound) flawless—like a fine Swiss watch.  

Scott

[Cablebandit]

 Meanwhile, the bike continues to run (and sound) flawless—like a fine Swiss watch.  

Scott

Well there's you problem.  The Wee should sound like a tractor.  Time to dump it and make it someones else's problem.  

[ChrisZRX]

1/2 quart or less in 4,000 miles?

That's well within the acceptable interval.

[Rincewind]

Another said "It's probably just a bit getting blown out the crankcase breather."

I had a bike that did that.  It was easily evidenced by oil accumulating in the airbox, then dripping out of there to the floor.  I replaced the crankcase breather seal twice, then I sold the bike.    

[rgbeard]

wish my bike used as little oil as yours does. Mine uses almost 2 quarts every 3000 miles

 

Rings?  Do you have any?   LOL.

[malbojah]

 

Rings?  Do you have any?   LOL.

Doubt it

[Skee]

So what were the manufacturer's break-in instructions Frank?

I don't remember the exact break-in instructions.  Not supposed to go over 6 or 7 k or for awhile.  I remember wondering if anyone ever follows the manufacturer's break-in instructions and getting close to 70 mpg.  Not like that will ever happen again.  

I think that it's normal for Wee's to use a little oil.  [Unlike my FJR, which never used any, and was run to redline in 4 gears within its first 20 or 30 miles. (Which was not the safest thing nor very smart, not even considering the potential for a performance award.)  I've noticed my Wee appears to use less oil when I keep the revs down; like on a long ride on damp roads during the winter, and seems to drink a bit when I bang off the rev limiters too often, like if I'm trying to keep Rincewind in sight.  [I know that's not good for the engine, but honestly, all my valves were in spec on the last check.  And it's a Wee!]  

Here's my Zen take.  Nothing good ever will ever come from being overly concerned or gentle with a motorcycle.  They will lose respect for you and let you sit by the side of the road.  A little TLC now and then goes a long way in overcoming the aftereffects of any punishing treatment.  Just the same, they won't tolerate uncalled for abuse or neglect.  So pour a little oil in now & then, and enjoy the salad.

Adding a little oil between rides is a lot easier than rebuilding the head to spec by yourself.  I wouldn't worry.

[SWriverstone]

Yeah, break-in is definitely like conversations about oil...or Area 51...or Mitt Romney's taxes.   you'll definitely get a different answer from every person in the conversation. Irode mine away from the shop and literally just rode an "RPM sine wave" for 800 miles...throttling smoothly up and down from 4-5K to 7-8K Yeah, my speed was all over the place—but the mechanic at the shop (who seemed knowledgeable but who knows?) said "Just don't hold it at the same RPM for more than a few seconds."

Scott

[JonS]

My old bike always used some oil, but when it started smoking some, it was time. I put new valve seals in and lapped the valves. Never smoked again.

[Papa Lazarou]

TRiumphs often use a bit of oil. I top mine up every few thousand.

I had a Panther once that left an oil slick behind it. Never had to change the oil, as it was an automatic feature....

[Rogue]

My '01 air cooled Bandit 1200 burned oil like that but it was known to do that and was a topic of hot debate in the Bandit forums.  I think Suzuki rectified that in the later air cooled Bandits.  BTW, my air cooled Buell XB12R did NOT burn much oil after 10k miles.  By the time it rolled around 20k miles I could go through an oil change cycle of 4k miles without needing to top up.  

So yeah.  Your V-Strom is burning oil abnormally for a liquid cooled, modern engine.  I would consider that bordering on excessive but not enough to get rid of the bike for that reason alone.

This is what you get for getting rid of your '06 VFR800.  

[chosemerveilleux]

Perhaps trying a different brand of oil will give you a different result.

My '84 FJ1100 (air-cooled) has 86K miles on it and I add a 1/2 quart make-up in a 5K oil change interval.  I've been running Amsoil 10-40 moto since I got the bike, some 4 years and almost 60K ago.

It's totally not out of the question that your motor will use more/less oil on different brands of oil, never mind the dino/syn choice.

Have you ever given Rotella T 5-40 a shot?  A lot of folks use it in their bikes.  I use it in my wife's Accord;  Went from 2 quarts every 5K miles (Penzoil HM) to 1 quart every 6K miles.  This on a car with 190K miles, so it's worth a shot.  Upside is it's cheap.

[naustin]

I would second the recommendation to check the air box for oil drawn up through the breather system. Not familiar with your bike, but I have seen it several times on other bikes.  

[davenay67]

wish my bike used as little oil as yours does. Mine uses almost 2 quarts every 3000 miles

Mine does too. But in my case, it's known as dropping the entire qty of the sump at the recommended OCI.    sorry, couldn't resist....

Back on topic, I wouldn't worry about that level of oil usage unless it gets steadily worse over time.

[yotes65]

wish my bike used as little oil as yours does. Mine uses almost 2 quarts every 3000 miles

wish I was that lucky....

2006 Sprint ST - All Maintenance was performed by the Triumph Dealer where I’d purchased the bike from until I traded it in. Nothing was every said about the bike being low on oil.

2008 Sprint ST - All Maintenance was performed by my Triumph Dealer where I’d purchased the bike from until they went out of business. At that time the bike had approx 32K miles on it. I'd changed the oil at 36K miles. At 39K miles the engine went. All three Pistons & Rings were shot & the engine was rebuilt by another local Triumph Dealer. As part of the original rebuild I'd paid to have the engine broken in on the shops Dyno. After that I'd checked the oil constantly. Burned a Qt every 1000 miles, WTF. 11K miles later the bike is smoking like you would not believe. Bike has been parked in my garage for the last 2 months. Trying to find the time to break down the engine to see what exactly is the issue. I’m assuming it's the Pistons & Rings again. One Sparkplug was per Black, the middle plug was Black & Tan, the third was corroded.

[naustin]

Might explain why they went out of buisness

[reppans]

I think a lot has to do with cylinder size.  Every large cylinder twin I've had (>1100cc) burned at least 1/4 to 1/2 quart per thousand.  Any smaller cylinder single or multi I've had (each cylinder ~250cc) never burned any oil.

[cbsnbiker]

Here's something else to try.

Instead of filling the oil to the top of the sight glass, try filling it to the center of the sight glass.

Then check the oil faithfully, and log the results.

See if the oil consumption is reduced.

1/2 quart or less in 4,000 miles?

That's well within the acceptable interval.

I agree, as long as it's not getting worse.

[smaug]

I had a 2007 Triumph Tiger 1050 (former demo bike) that burned enough that I had to pack oil on longer trips.  It burned 200-300 ml per 1000 miles.  If the bike burned more than 1-liter per 1000 miles, it would have been considered for warranty repair.  It consumed oil from the beginning and would need top offs to last the 6000 mile oil change interval.  Pressure tests did not show any problem.  It was one of the reasons that I got rid of that bike.  I put a lot of miles on it while it burned oil.

And now I have that bike 3rd hand from smoker. It burns that 300ml every 300 miles now. Funny thing about that is that good ole smoker never mentioned a thing about it using oil? You and him bein buddies I would assume he had known that little nugget of info. Too bad I wasn't a member of this forum before I bought it,I could have steered clear. Fwiw,the bike still runs strong but it uses a qrt every 3k.

[mxvet57]

231,000 on the FJR and burn no oil.

[ConPilot1]

Not a drop either in the old Connie burned.  

One of the reasons I said I'd never own another Suzuki is the first brand new one (GS550L aircooled i4) I bought started burning oil like a SOB at 8-9,000 miles.

Blue smoke. Not good.

[Smoker]

And now I have that bike 3rd hand from smoker. It burns that 300ml every 300 miles now. Funny thing about that is that good ole smoker never mentioned a thing about it using oil? You and him bein buddies I would assume he had known that little nugget of info. Too bad I wasn't a member of this forum before I bought it,I could have steered clear. Fwiw,the bike still runs strong but it uses a qrt every 3k.

Good to see you back on here smaug, sorry if I didn't mention that, thought I did. Does sound pretty typical for a Triumph though.

My FJR is burning a little oil between changes as well. With 40K miles I'm not real concerned about it. Just one of those things to check when I check tire pressures, etc.

[smaug]

Good to see you back on here smaug, sorry if I didn't mention that, thought I did. Does sound pretty typical for a Triumph though.

My FJR is burning a little oil between changes as well. With 40K miles I'm not real concerned about it. Just one of those things to check when I check tire pressures, etc.

4oz every 300 miles is not normal. Its been that way since I got it from you. It certainly would have been that way when you owned it. If you would have mentioned that you would have had to sell it to some other sucker. That said,I'm stuck with it as I wouldn't dream of trying to sell it without notifying the prospective buyer of that flaw. All said,its still one hell of a bike even if I did pay about 1500 too much.

[TuffguyF4i]

As long as you are not fouling plugs, who cares?  Is the smoking of the bike so bad that it is annoying?

Burning 'some oil' is really normal.

[ConPilot1]

That bike sale was quite a while ago if we're talking about the blue tiger.
 My question is why didn't you address this with the seller soon after you took delivery of the bike and discovered the problem instead of coming back here
2 years later busting his balls about it?  

[Rattlehead]

IMHO, there is NO excuse for a modern engine to be using any oil until it’s well into the 6 digit odo readings. However, designs are seldom perfect, mfg has inherent variation, break-in’s vary and QC isn’t always perfect. That being said, I’d say less than 1qt btw 3000mi changes is acceptable (with less than 1/2qt being ideal  ), 1-2qt is questionable and more than 2 is unacceptable. This is just my unprofessional opinion though.

In my experience, my Zuki’s have been great on oil consumption. My Busa (@32k miles) uses a negligible amount between changes (maybe 1/8” down on the sight window from where I filled it), my old GSXR750 (23k mi) was the same. My wife’s S40 (no longer with us   ) used zero. My worst bikes for oil usage were Harleys/ Buells. My 04 Sportster would use a solid qt-qt &1/2 btw changes.   My 2 Buells would eat ½-1qt every 3k and since they only hold 2.5qt you had to really stay on top of them. Now, they were all 3 basically the same engine, which suffers from a questionable breather design, so I’m by no means implying that all Harleys go through oil. Sportster Evo’s tend to “eat” it through the breather though; just my experience. It wouldn't stop me from buying another Sporty and another Buell, if funds permitted.  

[Cablebandit]

It's a Triumph.  Be glad there isn't a puddle under it.

[Papa Lazarou]

Burning oil is the God sent duty of every first world citizen. We wouldn't want those darkies (who produce it) to have any, now, would we?

[Andrew]

Burning oil is the God sent duty of every first world citizen. We wouldn't want those darkies (who produce it) to have any, now, would we?

Well, I guess that just proves you are from that little island next to Europe.


(dam funny in a sort of twisted way  )

[Mastros2]

My question is why didn't you address this with the seller soon after you took delivery of the bike and discovered the problem instead of coming back here

+1.  Smoker is a nice guy.  At least that is what I have been telling people...

It's a Triumph.  Be glad there isn't a puddle under it.

   

[honda4ever]

The current Honda CBR1000RR - including the 2012 model - is an oil guzzler.
I thought Honda fixed this, but modaily mentions their bike uses 200mls every 600 miles.  Which Honda considers ok.

None of my Hondas (Wings mainly) ever used oil between changes.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/07/md-ride-review-2012-honda-cbr1000rr/

[CanadianBird]

I'll be turning 192,000 kms this week and my BlackBird has never burned oil. I've never added oil in between oil changes.  

[naustin]

My ST1300 has never used a drop of oil.  It only has 13k on it so far though...

[Papa Lazarou]

Well, I guess that just proves you are from that little island next to Europe.


(dam funny in a sort of twisted way  )

That was my 24 hour right wing phase. I couldn't manage longer than that. I felt ill.