Turning Safely and Comfortably

[alexj]

I have a very difficult time turning at anywhere approaching speed . . . I nearly failed the MSF basic course due to the 'fast curve' portion of the test

Even now after a couple months turns still seem definitely scary and bad for my health unless I slow down to about 10mph below the 'speed recommended by the yellow warning signs', which means I go through turns on 2 wheels even slower than I go through them on 4 wheels (I usually find my 'this is safe and not traumatic' threshhold about 5 mph below the speed on the sign when driving my truck)

Anyway, I know motorcycles can actually turn at speeds . . . . so what is the proper way to go about getting better at turning (and going through curves in the roads also, even if are not turns)

[evilted]

I'm assuming that you're trying to navigate turns on your motorcycle the way you'd drive them in your car  -- don't.  Cars can brake deep into turns without standing up or lowsiding.  

"Slow, Look, Lean, Roll" works for me and there are plenty of references on the web for you to look at.

Find a good place to practice SLLR and I'm sure you'll see rapid improvement in your cornering ability.

I have a very difficult time turning at anywhere approaching speed . . . I nearly failed the MSF basic course due to the 'fast curve' portion of the test

Even now after a couple months turns still seem definitely scary and bad for my health unless I slow down to about 10mph below the 'speed recommended by the yellow warning signs', which means I go through turns on 2 wheels even slower than I go through them on 4 wheels (I usually find my 'this is safe and not traumatic' threshhold about 5 mph below the speed on the sign when driving my truck)

Anyway, I know motorcycles can actually turn at speeds . . . . so what is the proper way to go about getting better at turning (and going through curves in the roads also, even if are not turns)

[CanadianBird]

I encourage you to take/re-take the MCSC. I'm assuming b/c of your "anxiety" you aren't relaxed but rather you are tense. This makes the bike heavy and difficult to turn. You need to look in the direction you want your bike to go. Push on the bar of the direction you want to go. Are you counter balancing on slow tight turns? You should be able to take most corners quite abit over the posted speed. I'm not advocating that but I'm saying it's possible. Are you gearing down to keep the torque up and speed up for that corner? It's easy to ride at speed in a straight line but that's not where the fun is. The fun is in the twisties. Set up some cones in a vacant lot and practice riding through the cones. Where you look is where you go. Riding slow is much more of a challenge than riding fast. It's in the clutch/throttle control, relaxation, and counter balancing yourself in the saddle. Good Luck

[cbsnbiker]

Alexj, I'm going to assume that your bike is in proper working order: everything from properly-functioning suspension pieces to properly-inflated tires. (If not, fix it or get it fixed.)

I recommend that you take a BRCII (formerly known as ERC) course. The coaches can help coach you to improve how you negotiate turns. Make a point of mentioning this concern to them, so they can focus on helping you with your turning skills.

Best wishes!

[M.Brane]

 Look where you want to go.

 Shift your weight to that side of the bike, and slightly forward using the pegs not the bars.

 Roll on the throttle as early as possible.

 Enjoy.

 

[sfalexi]

Have you tried weaving while riding down the road?  Just slightly pushing left, right, left, right on the bars while keeping a steady throttle to initiate a slow and gentle weave?  It gets you used to leaning and countersteering.  Essentially, a turn at speed on a bike is a weave, just in one direction.  Instead of pushing left, right, left, right to continually weave, you push left.  And that's it.  Keep it there, and you turn.  When the turn is DONE, push right to get yourself back up.

Alexi

[Yankee Dog]

Have you tried weaving while riding down the road?  Just slightly pushing left, right, left, right on the bars while keeping a steady throttle to initiate a slow and gentle weave?  It gets you used to leaning and countersteering.  Essentially, a turn at speed on a bike is a weave, just in one direction.  Instead of pushing left, right, left, right to continually weave, you push left.  And that's it.  Keep it there, and you turn.  When the turn is DONE, push right to get yourself back up.

Alexi

Try doing this in a big open parking lot. At slow speed. As you gain confidence, you can increase your speed. you just have to overcome your fear factor.  Dont worry it will come with time and practice.

[Cablebandit]

Try doing this in a big open parking lot. At slow speed. As you gain confidence, you can increase your speed. you just have to overcome your fear factor.  Dont worry it will come with time and practice.

Slow speed being above about 12 ish MPH.  Below that the bike won't have the gyroscopic effect.

[bomber]

 Roll on the throttle as early as possible.

This is an often overlooked item (many folks do it without thinking, so they don't talk about it).

You'll likely be much more comfortable through the turn if you stay on teh throttle throughout (which means slowing to the right speed before turn in) . . . . .

On the throttle doesn't mean WFO, btw, but just slightly more gas than is needed to maintain your speed . . . .

[bikerfish1100]

Slow speed being above about 12 ish MPH. Below that the bike won't have the gyroscopic effect.

yes, it will. just more strongly pronounced.
however, gyro effect is not what makes the bike turn (in case you were thinking in that direction), it's what keeps it rolling upright.

[bikerfish1100]

how far ahead of yourself are you looking? just gonna take a WAG here, and suggest that your eyes, and thus your brain, are way too close to you and your bike.

[CosmicCowboy]

how far ahead of yourself are you looking? just gonna take a WAG here, and suggest that your eyes, and thus your brain, are way too close to you and your bike.

This is what I was going to suggest. Keep your focal distance far enough ahead on your course.

[cbsnbiker]

It also would not surprise me if you are having difficulty with countersteering, Alexj, whether the concept of it or doing it in practice (or both). I especially suspect this since you mentioned having had difficulty with this issue in the cornering part of the BRC as well as in the real world.

Ergo my recommendation for a BRCII course: to have the coaches help you diagnose the issues and help you learn how to improve your cornering skills.  

BTW, in the meantime, slowing way down for turns is a good idea, if you're still hesitant about all of this stuff. Better that you take a corner successfully at a cautiously slow pace than blow a curve at speed.

[taximan62]

I recommend you get this:  Twist of The Wrist II (The cornering bible)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPp4zyJXM28

[Windblown]

"Trouble turning" is a pretty broad description. What scares you most when you're turning at speed?

1) Leaning the bike and losing traction?
2) Leaning the bike and losing balance?
3) Other?

What happens when you feel you are entering a turn too hot? Do you find yourself looking where you are scared you'll end up? Does the bike suddenly feel like it won't turn enough to keep you on the road?

The mind is a powerful thing, just knowing "how" to turn a motorcycle is not enough once fear overwhelms the thought process.  

[pete620]

Proficient Motorcycling has really good break down of how to turn, and why.  It helped me out alot when I was getting started.

http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335797917&sr=1-1

[Bellboy1]

Another good book, regardless fo what you ride is Sport Riding Techniques.  Whereas Proficinet Motorcycling gets into the what happens to the motoecycle by countersteering at the handlebars, Nick presents an alternative viewpoint where you concentrate on eyes, head and chest leading into the curve which results in your hands automatically countersteering properly.  I found that even at low speeds, by concentrating on those areas, the turns got easier and easier for me.  It doesn't take much, and you are not "hanging off the bike", just enough to work with the bike as it goes through the curve rather than fighting it.  Once you get the technique down the speeds start coming up over time because you gain much more confidence that the bike will not suddenly do something unexpected.

Whatever you do, work up to it slowly.  Do NOT feel pressured to take those curves any faster.  That is where a lot of people get into trouble riding over their head.  Speed will come with time, practice and confidence.  

[Corbeau]

The idea behind rolling on the throttle is that when the bike is leaned, which it needs to be to turn, the circumference of the part of the tire is smaller than when upright. So you need to increase the RPMs to even things out.
Very nice graphic in Profficient Motorcycling. Or just ponder that next time you eat a donut.

[bikerfish1100]

The idea behind rolling on the throttle is that when the bike is leaned, which it needs to be to turn, the circumference of the part of the tire is smaller than when upright. So you need to increase the RPMs to even things out.
Very nice graphic in Profficient Motorcycling. Or just ponder that next time you eat a donut.

Besides counteracting the slowing of the bike caused by the lean, adding throttle also "sets" ("stabilizes" in MSF's terminology, "extends" in practical application) the suspension, making the bike ride taut, not wallowy.

[caasland]

I had a friend with a similar problem. Turns out she was counteracting her countersteering, i.e. when she pushed on the left handlebar to go left, she also pushed on the right handlebar. Her solution was to left go of the outside handlebar completely and kept her hand hovering about an inch over it until she convinced herself what she was doing wrong.

So ... are you SURE you're not countering your counter-steering?

[Rattlehead]

The whole “leaning to turn” thing is very unnatural and terrifying to a lot of people.    My wife struggled with it quite a bit. With time and practice though, it becomes more natural and the fear subsides.  

Some suggestions:
-If you don’t understand the concept of counter steering, you need to read up on it and practice it in a safe environment (open parking lot, deserted curvy road). This is a fundamental concept to riding and you really need to be able to do it without thinking. Most people who struggle with it are simply over-thinking it. It’s not a difficult skill and it will feel very natural once you become comfortable leaning the bike to turn at speed.

-Relax.   The connection between bike/rider is 1,000,000 more pronounced than in a car. If you’re tense, the bike will feel tense. If you’re relaxed, the bike will just “flow” with you. I know it sounds kinda “hokey” but a bike will “sense” its rider mood/ condition. If you find yourself getting tense or scared, pull over, take a walk, sit down and chill, whatever it takes to clear your mind and then hop back on and continue your riding. You’re not doing yourself any favors by continuing on when your whole body is a tensed up, stressed out wreck.

-Trust your bike. lean it over and trust that it will stick (within reason of course, going 100mph around that 30mph curve is going to require a MASSIVE amount of skill and not just trust.   ). Even the worst handling bikes out there can generally run the posted speed through a curve. Aside from a whole road being covered in loose sand and oil slicks your tires will have no problems sticking to the pavement at the normal pace of traffic. Remember, most bikes have more capabilities than the riders on them, so trust it and let it do its thing.

-get comfortable with leaning. If you are traveling any speed over a jogging pace you will not just “fall over”. The real risk of falling over is generally when you’re going so slow you haven’t even put your feet up on the pegs yet. Most motorcycles are comfortable with VERY high amounts of lean angle, most new riders are not. The more you ride the less worrisome it will be to lean the bike. In fact, in time you will probably become comfortable enough that some bikes will run out of available lean angle before you become uncomfortable. THATS an interesting experiance the 1st time it happens.  

-Lastly, Be patient. Learning to ride takes time and learning to really ride takes quite a bit more. You won’t have it mastered by the end of the week so just set it in your mind that it’s a learning process and it’s going to take time. Just relax and try to enjoy the ride.
 good luck  

[retro]

I can relate to this. My main fear was that the tires would lose traction. My brain refused to believe that such a small contact patch would hold me on the road. My first fast (for me) curves were a leap of faith but I watched other riders leaned over way further than I ever did. So trust your tires.

The other thing that has helped was reading in one of the books mentioned, I can't remember which, as you begin to enter the curve, turn your chest in the direction you want to go, not just your head. And shift your weight to the inside peg. Not sure why but that helped a lot.

And practice. Lots of practice.

[bikerfish1100]

the reason turning your chest helped with the turn is that it automatically puts pressure on your turn-side grip (try it, just sitting in your chair, arms extended in a riding position- see what your arms do), beginning a counter-steering procedure.

[HipGnosis]

gyro effect is not what makes the bike turn (in case you were thinking in that direction), it's what keeps it rolling upright.

in other words: The gyro effect stabilizes the bike.

[Jeets]

My biggest advice is for you to find a good mentor and or friend that rides.  I not only walked but rode in your shoes.  I get it!  I hated down hill turns as much as flies like sh$$!  Sorry, that was the best comparison I could come up with at the spur of the moment.

You got 3 pages of good advice but for now its too much for you to think about.  It will succeed to make yiu slower.  What does it mean to point your chest this way or weight this peg or spin around on your seat lol when you're scared as hell?

My advice is to get out and ride preferrably with the mentor I suggested above.  It's going to take time.  For now get out and ride.  Find some roads you've never been on or some scenery that's new to you.  Don't worry if your friend takes off through the twisty parts he will wait for you at the next turn.  Hell I loved watching good riders ride.  That's the plus for being in the back.

After some time has passed then what you read here will begin to make sense.


Sent from my BlackBerry Runtime for Android Apps using Tapatalk 2

[medjen]

I'm glad I came across this thread.

Had a VERY scary experience in traffic yesterday and wound up in a ditch the wrong side of the road due to not leaning with the bike into an off-camber right handed turn. I'm glad I'm alive to be able to look back and realize my mistake and my bike is none the worse for wear. Last night I had convinced myself that I just wasn't cut out to ride a bike and was ready to quit, but maybe what I need is a big slice of humble pie and more parking lot practice. It's not easy admitting that you're not as good at something as you thought...

[M.Brane]

I'm glad I came across this thread.

Had a VERY scary experience in traffic yesterday and wound up in a ditch the wrong side of the road due to not leaning with the bike into an off-camber right handed turn. I'm glad I'm alive to be able to look back and realize my mistake and my bike is none the worse for wear. Last night I had convinced myself that I just wasn't cut out to ride a bike and was ready to quit, but maybe what I need is a big slice of humble pie and more parking lot practice. It's not easy admitting that you're not as good at something as you thought...

 In an off camber turn you want to lean more than the bike. Get your ass off the seat, and kiss that mirror.

[medjen]

 In an off camber turn you want to lean more than the bike. Get your ass off the seat, and kiss that mirror.

Yeah. I did the opposite of that.  

But, I spent two hours doing parking lot practice this morning, so all is not lost.

[coucours grad]

With all of the advise your gonna recieve I only want to stress one thing......





    Ride your ride at your pace. Do alot of riding and I mean ALOT....You'll get good at it with time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8M_7fBR63Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFm3honeTQo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLgmlZQg2XM&feature=related

Take your time, ride YOUR ride....Avoid traffic for awhile and it will come too you.

[Fun Dog]

I wouldn't worry about it.  I think your fear is perfectly normal.  Think about it.  You're about 2 feet off the ground with virtually no crash protection and no seat belt moving at 30 to 70 mph.  Who wouldn't be scared?

I'm not trying to be funny.  I'm serious.  Motorcycling can be a scary business.  I still get worried when I approach a corner at speed and I've been riding for 7 years now.  It's natural.

It's not people like you who worry me.  It's people without fear who tend to push the limits and eventually get hurt.  You will progress at your own pace and everything will turn out fine.  You may one day be comfortable at speed through corners.

You may never be.

It doesn't really matter.

[Fun Dog]

The other thing that has helped was reading in one of the books mentioned, I can't remember which, as you begin to enter the curve, turn your chest in the direction you want to go, not just your head. And shift your weight to the inside peg. Not sure why but that helped a lot.

If you're looking for technique, this one tip also made everything much easier for me...particularly turning my torso towards the turn.

[highside]

Proficient Motorcycling has really good break down of how to turn, and why.  It helped me out alot when I was getting started.

http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335797917&sr=1-1

A big +1 to that. This book does a great job of clarifying concepts for someone who has completed the MSF (very) BRC. There are some fantastic drills that will make it all seem pretty easy once you get it dialed it.

[allwedrrider]

I have a very difficult time turning at anywhere approaching speed . . . I nearly failed the MSF basic course due to the 'fast curve' portion of the test

Even now after a couple months turns still seem definitely scary and bad for my health unless I slow down to about 10mph below the 'speed recommended by the yellow warning signs', which means I go through turns on 2 wheels even slower than I go through them on 4 wheels (I usually find my 'this is safe and not traumatic' threshhold about 5 mph below the speed on the sign when driving my truck)

Anyway, I know motorcycles can actually turn at speeds . . . . so what is the proper way to go about getting better at turning (and going through curves in the roads also, even if are not turns)

a slightly different perspective. i think thats perfectly fine and faaaaar better than being uncomfortable and risking it. as you put on miles, the confidence will come! go half a mile or just one mile over your comfort zone a few times. then increase that over time. confidence will come. just ride safe and within your limits - no need to feel pressured to ride faster

[highside]

I just want to emphasize the importance of learning proper technique at this point in your riding career. Lots of guys will tell you to rely on your instincts, but human evolution does not provide you with natural motorcycle riding instincts. Your instincts are what cause target-fixation and panic response, probably the two greatest causes a motorcycle crashes in the world. You need to train proper technique so that it OVERRIDES your instincts and feels natural.

A LOT of riders make the mistake of getting past the hurdles of BASIC riding and assume that some ingrained natural skill will take over from there. This is where bad habits become practice and where a lot of riding myths come from (like layin' her down).

This point in your learning is MORE important than the total noob stage because now you have just enough confidence to get yourself killed instead of just having harmless parking lot drops. I urge you to attend a track school or at least read a good technique manual like twist of the wrist or proficient motorcycling, and PRACTICE the drills until they are boring and then keep doing them every now and then to keep them fresh.  

[scotteroni]

Borrow a bicycle, small traffic cones and practice doing figure eights in a big parking lot till u get real good at doing it fast and in tight circles.  Then borrow a dirt bike and do the same thing experimenting with how the bike reacts to braking, slipping the clutch and giving it throttle or letting off.  work up to doing it on your bike.  It may be your bike is too big or heavy for you to feel comfortable on right now.

Things to remember:

Reduce speed before entering corners, avoid abrupt braking ,downshifting and throttle in a corner. All your inputs need to be smooth and sychronized.
Increase throttle half way out of corner. If your bike feels like it going too slow and fall into the corner, increase throttle gradually and the bike will straighten up.
make sure your rpms are high enough and your in a low enough gear to give you enough power thru the curve. unless your riding a v twin your rpms should be above 3k. Keep practicing and youll be successful.

[scotteroni]

Borrow a bicycle, small traffic cones and practice doing figure eights in a big parking lot till u get real good at doing it fast and in tight circles.  Then borrow a dirt bike and do the same thing experimenting with how the bike reacts to braking, slipping the clutch and giving it throttle or letting off.  work up to doing it on your bike.  It may be your bike is too big or heavy for you to feel comfortable on right now.

Things to remember:

Reduce speed before entering corners, avoid abrupt braking ,downshifting and throttle in a corner. All your inputs need to be smooth and sychronized.
Increase throttle half way out of corner. If your bike feels like it going too slow and fall into the corner, increase throttle gradually and the bike will straighten up.
make sure your rpms are high enough and your in a low enough gear to give you enough power thru the curve. unless your riding a v twin your rpms should be above 3k. Keep practicing and youll be successful.

[Cablebandit]

 . . . I nearly failed the MSF basic course due to the 'fast curve' portion of the test

I'm always amused by these type of statements.  One portion of the test will not fail you.  Not even close, unless you drop the bike.