Somebody find this guy and give them the article 15 he deserves.

[Liquidsilver]

Gosh.   There are a lot of tough guys in here.  

[sfalexi]

And Alexsi no offense to you. You are an NCO but being a musician in the army doesn't exactly give you much experience in developing leadership skills. You'll never be a Team Leader, or Squad Leader or a Platoon Sergeant in a line unit. How many people are in a band total?   I spent 13 years in line units before I switched to MI.  I left because my body was broken from the time I spent there. Give up your flute, pick up a rifle and hump a ruck for a few years then we can talk about how to run a platoon or company.  You are  absolutely correct about this guy though. If its highly visible you can be sure it won't just be an ass chewing. You can forgive a mistake but you can't forgive one everyone knows about especially the person doing the wrong is of higher rank.

I hear this often.  Just remember that there are good NCOs and bad NCOs in every field.  Don't look at my field and ASSUME I can't be an effective leader.  Just as I don't look at a senior NCO in a line unit and assume that they are automatically great leaders.  Definitely not gonna give up my instrument.  We all chose our jobs, and I was asked by a few 1SGs to switch to their job, but that's ok.  I like my job.  But just do me a favor, and judge after you get to evaluate the person, not because of their job, where they've been stationed, or how many stripes they have (or lack).

Alexi

[Kneescrubber]

Discipline to follow the rules to the letter. Some do it, some don't. Some insist on it, some don't. Major clash between the dos and don'ts.




Yet another former enlistee who decided they'd had enough after 6 years. I was taught in NCO school that every airman/soldier needs to be analyzed and coached into becoming the best they can be. Some respond to full frontal assault, some respond to reason, some need reassurance... Granted it's been 30 years since I earned my DD214. But tell me NoGear, has the above approach to bettering a soldier changed? Is that not one of your jobs as a Senior NCO?

[nater]

This is incorrect. As a member of the Armed Forces UCMJ covers you no matter where you.  That's 24/7 worldwide.  The "no texting while driving" was actually put out as a Presidential order to all government employees including the military.

For instance. I have a soldier that I dislike. While on leave he didn't shave and posted pictures of his unshaven self on FB. When he returned off of leave he was read his Article 15 for disobeying a lawful order.  He response was "I didn't know it was against the regs not to shave when you are on leave."  I pulled out a copy of the counseling statement that he was given before he left on leave reminding him that he still must comply with all rules and regulations while on leave (this was his first time going on leave since he joined and finished basic and AIT).  That counseling statement, which he signed, cut the legs out from underneath him.    

The moral of the story is you are never free from UCMJ until the day you have your DD214 in hand.   How do I know this? Because I'm a senior non-commissioned officer who has retired once and I'm back on active duty now.  Senior NCOs are sort of the EOEs in the military for those who haven't served.

Good lands man!!  What in the world were you thinking??  What good came of that?

[NoGear]

I've learned over the years that you can not make everyone into a good soldier. Some you can't even make into a soldier. It used to be that these individuals were weeded out during basic training but basic today is like the baseball league where every team gets a trophy. They try not to fail anyone. They don't even have to meet the standard. They only have to do 80% of the standard to pass in basic now. So what really is the standard???? When I was a platoon sergeant for AIT I started every cycle with 192 new soldiers. The average who graduated was 75. Now if they fail a test they get another 3 chances to pass it before they are re-cycled.  Yes, 4 chances to pass the exact same test. They don't even give them a different version. The exact same test. How would you of liked that when you were in school? "I'm sorry, you failed the test but we're going to give you another 3 tries at it before we flunk you".  

What did it accomplish? Now the kid knows that A)  knows he can be caught B) it will cost him C) he isn't as slick as he thought he is.   Since he's lost rank and he actually is acting like a better soldier but he's only doing it so that he doesn't get in trouble again. The kid was in the unit for 8 months and had been written up by his section sergeant 5 times for being late to formation. That in of it's self could of gotten him an Article 15 but he whined to the 1SG. Now his section sergeant has to waste time and personally wake his ass up everyday. When it came time to deploy, he claims he couldn't find his ACH (helmet) and some other gear. He said someone must of stole it. His other soldiers are of the opinion he pawned it. He got a statement of charges for the gear.  Over here there is free laundry service but the kid wouldn't take his clothes to get washed. He'd keep wearing the same dirty clothes.  We made him take his clothes there. I made his sergeant bring me his drop off sheet to prove he was doing it. He complained to the CSM that I was singling him out. So now I have to have everyone turn in their slips to me even though he was the only problem.  Seeing a pattern here? Then after the statement of charges were taken out of his pay he complained he was broke and didn't have any money when he was told needed to buy a new hat because the one he had is unservicable. (we are deployed so where does his money go? buying shit over the internet instead of saving it like most others)  A few days later $320 goes missing out of his roommates wall locker. That same day the problem child is seen buying pizza for dinner, and has an new $280 xbox (still no new headgear though)  We couldn't prove he stole the money and he wouldn't confess. He just stood there with a grin on his face the whole time because he knew if he didn't confess we couldn't do anything.   If this was a civilian job he would of been fired.  But we can't fire you in the military.   So what did I do? I waited till he did something I could get him on. I've been doing this for over 20 years and have seen dozens of others like him. I knew it would only be a matter of time.  He broke the regs and I got him on it.   Don't like the reg? I don't write them, but I will use them to my advantage. If I have a tool in my tool box I'm going to use it.  Now the kid won't try and get over as much for the rest of his enlistment and he is barred from re-enlistment so I've done the army two favors.  


Alex, you are correct in your statement.  I have one of the worse CSM's of my career right now.  He's not a bad guy. He just doesn't do anything, at all, bad or good which makes for a really bad Sergeant Major.  He's a ROADY (Retired On Active Duty)

[Pitts2112]

For instance. I have a soldier that I dislike. While on leave he didn't shave ...lots of self-serving irrelevant nonsense...    

...How do I know this? Because I'm a senior non-commissioned officer who has retired once and I'm back on active duty now.  

This may be thread drift, but it needs to be said:
Retired or not, you are a dick.  And you may not think a band geek is qualified to make a comment, but I'm a former active duty commissioned officer who is.  You're a dick and I would be all over YOUR ass if you treated troops in my squadron with that kind of attitude.

Retiring was probably the best thing you did for the military and those that served with you.  Going back in, probably the worst, because now you can bring that air of superiority and righteousness back in with the added bonus that you've had "extra leadership experience" on the outside.

Think seriously about what you do and WHY you do it.  Do things to teach and lead, not to stroke your own ego or carry out your personal agenda.

[falconati]

Yikes....military-touring.net just heated up!

[NoGear]

This may be thread drift, but it needs to be said:
Retired or not, you are a dick.  And you may not think a band geek is qualified to make a comment, but I'm a former active duty commissioned officer who is.  You're a dick and I would be all over YOUR ass if you treated troops in my squadron with that kind of attitude.

Retiring was probably the best thing you did for the military and those that served with you.  Going back in, probably the worst, because now you can bring that air of superiority and righteousness back in with the added bonus that you've had "extra leadership experience" on the outside.

Think seriously about what you do and WHY you do it.  Do things to teach and lead, not to stroke your own ego or carry out your personal agenda.

Well sir, your opinion doesn't really count for much since you are a former active duty commissioned officer which means you didn't even make it to retirement and when I was in the Cav officers keep their noses out of NCO business.  That could explain why you didn't make it.  I guess you weren't in long enough to learn that some soldiers you can't teach and they aren't capable of learning the easy way.  Oh, and my raters and senior raters have always rated me superior on my NCOERs. I turned down promotion to retire and apparently DA doesn't share your opinion on my coming back either since they brought me back.  And yes I've always been a dick when it comes to enforcing the regulations.  As far as taking care of my soldiers I don't think if you ask them right now they'd complain. I'm living in a tent while I made sure they live in two man CHUs, except for the problem child that is. He has his own CHU for safety reasons. It seems no one else wants to live with him and since they threatened to do him bodily harm I can't make anyone else live with him. So it seem the other 18 people in the section share the same opinion of him. But that doesn't matter does it?  

I learn on here from County that it's impossible to please everyone on here but it sure is easy to piss them off.  

[Formerly Known as Bigfoot]

Well sir, your opinion doesn't really count for much since you are a former active duty commissioned officer which means you didn't even make it to retirement and when I was in the Cav officers keep their noses out of NCO business.  That could explain why you didn't make it.  I guess you weren't in long enough to learn that some soldiers you can't teach and they aren't capable of learning the easy way.  Oh, and my raters and senior raters have always rated me superior on my NCOERs. I turned down promotion to retire and apparently DA doesn't share your opinion on my coming back either since they brought me back.  And yes I've always been a dick when it comes to enforcing the regulations.  As far as taking care of my soldiers I don't think if you ask them right now they'd complain. I'm living in a tent while I made sure they live in two man CHUs, except for the problem child that is. He has his own CHU for safety reasons. It seems no one else wants to live with him and since they threatened to do him bodily harm I can't make anyone else live with him. So it seem the other 18 people in the section share the same opinion of him. But that doesn't matter does it?  

I learn on here from County that it's impossible to please everyone on here but it sure is easy to piss them off.  

You likely could have explained it better from the start instead of saying you didn't like the guy.  From what you've posted here he sounds like a real problem child and maybe the heavy handed enforcement of regulations was necessary.  
I think any military, or para-military style organization will see problem people like this guy and you always wish the upper echelon would grow some balls and do something about them.  Maybe that's what you were doing.  

[satxbonneville]

I've learned over the years that you can not make everyone into a good soldier. Some you can't even make into a soldier. It used to be that these individuals were weeded out during basic training but basic today is like the baseball league where every team gets a trophy. They try not to fail anyone. They don't even have to meet the standard. They only have to do 80% of the standard to pass in basic now. So what really is the standard???? When I was a platoon sergeant for AIT I started every cycle with 192 new soldiers. The average who graduated was 75. Now if they fail a test they get another 3 chances to pass it before they are re-cycled.  Yes, 4 chances to pass the exact same test. They don't even give them a different version. The exact same test. How would you of liked that when you were in school? "I'm sorry, you failed the test but we're going to give you another 3 tries at it before we flunk you".  

What did it accomplish? Now the kid knows that A)  knows he can be caught B) it will cost him C) he isn't as slick as he thought he is.   Since he's lost rank and he actually is acting like a better soldier but he's only doing it so that he doesn't get in trouble again. The kid was in the unit for 8 months and had been written up by his section sergeant 5 times for being late to formation. That in of it's self could of gotten him an Article 15 but he whined to the 1SG. Now his section sergeant has to waste time and personally wake his ass up everyday. When it came time to deploy, he claims he couldn't find his ACH (helmet) and some other gear. He said someone must of stole it. His other soldiers are of the opinion he pawned it. He got a statement of charges for the gear.  Over here there is free laundry service but the kid wouldn't take his clothes to get washed. He'd keep wearing the same dirty clothes.  We made him take his clothes there. I made his sergeant bring me his drop off sheet to prove he was doing it. He complained to the CSM that I was singling him out. So now I have to have everyone turn in their slips to me even though he was the only problem.  Seeing a pattern here? Then after the statement of charges were taken out of his pay he complained he was broke and didn't have any money when he was told needed to buy a new hat because the one he had is unservicable. (we are deployed so where does his money go? buying shit over the internet instead of saving it like most others)  A few days later $320 goes missing out of his roommates wall locker. That same day the problem child is seen buying pizza for dinner, and has an new $280 xbox (still no new headgear though)  We couldn't prove he stole the money and he wouldn't confess. He just stood there with a grin on his face the whole time because he knew if he didn't confess we couldn't do anything.   If this was a civilian job he would of been fired.  But we can't fire you in the military.   So what did I do? I waited till he did something I could get him on. I've been doing this for over 20 years and have seen dozens of others like him. I knew it would only be a matter of time.  He broke the regs and I got him on it.   Don't like the reg? I don't write them, but I will use them to my advantage. If I have a tool in my tool box I'm going to use it.  Now the kid won't try and get over as much for the rest of his enlistment and he is barred from re-enlistment so I've done the army two favors.  


Alex, you are correct in your statement.  I have one of the worse CSM's of my career right now.  He's not a bad guy. He just doesn't do anything, at all, bad or good which makes for a really bad Sergeant Major.  He's a ROADY (Retired On Active Duty)

You should spend less time congratulating yourself for being so awesome and more time doing your job as an "EOE" senior NCO. Have you sent this kid for counseling? Have you made him a personal reclamation project or have you just decided to make him the target of your personal crusade to further fuck up his life - it doesn't sound as if he needs any help doing that but maybe he could use some real help in NOT fucking it up. Yep, he may be a problem child but that should be a challenge for you, not an opportunity to void the "professionalism" touted in the 21st century military.

You may be a fine NCO but you're not displaying good leadership qualities with this soldier. If he is a serious problem (and not just an irritant) then there are procedures within the UCMJ to separate him from the military.

[NoGear]

You should spend less time congratulating yourself for being so awesome and more time doing your job as an "EOE" senior NCO. Have you sent this kid for counseling? Have you made him a personal reclamation project or have you just decided to make him the target of your personal crusade to further fuck up his life - it doesn't sound as if he needs any help doing that but maybe he could use some real help in NOT fucking it up. Yep, he may be a problem child but that should be a challenge for you, not an opportunity to void the "professionalism" touted in the 21st century military.

You may be a fine NCO but you're not displaying good leadership qualities with this soldier. If he is a serious problem (and not just an irritant) then there are procedures within the UCMJ to separate him from the military.

He's been given every opportunity. The final straw with him was the theft. I hate thieves especially one who would steal from someone he's suppose to have his back.  He records from Basic and AIT both show that he was one who did the absolute minimum to get by. I do know he was given a summerized Article 15 while in AIT but I don't know what for because a summerized doesn't follow you to your next duty station. And know that didn't taint my opinion of him because I didn't find that out till later when another soldier transferred in before deployment who was in AIT with him.  I told his Team NCO to make him his battle buddy thinking that he already knew him and the new guy might be able to help him out but the new soldier said he didn't want anything to do with him.  Even tried to get the Chaplain to speak with him but he wouldn't because he said he's a wican.  The kid is by no means stupid. On the contrary, he's very intelligent he just thinks he doesn't have to do what everyone else does. He wants everything the easy way, like stealing.

[SuperHans]

And Alexsi no offense to you. You are an NCO but being a musician in the army doesn't exactly give you much experience in developing leadership skills. You'll never be a Team Leader, or Squad Leader or a Platoon Sergeant in a line unit. How many people are in a band total?   I spent 13 years in line units before I switched to MI.  I left because my body was broken from the time I spent there. Give up your flute, pick up a rifle and hump a ruck for a few years then we can talk about how to run a platoon or company.  You are  absolutely correct about this guy though. If its highly visible you can be sure it won't just be an ass chewing. You can forgive a mistake but you can't forgive one everyone knows about especially the person doing the wrong is of higher rank.

.

Choose your rate, choose your fate leg.   I guess you ground pounders call it a MOS? Sounds like you're a little jealous that Alexsi actually has a marketable skill other than shooting at people and harassing junior enlisted.  

[ninjaridaz]

Well sir, your opinion doesn't really count for much since you are a former active duty commissioned officer which means you didn't even make it to retirement and when I was in the Cav officers keep their noses out of NCO business.  That could explain why you didn't make it.  I guess you weren't in long enough to learn that some soldiers you can't teach and they aren't capable of learning the easy way.  Oh, and my raters and senior raters have always rated me superior on my NCOERs. I turned down promotion to retire and apparently DA doesn't share your opinion on my coming back either since they brought me back.  And yes I've always been a dick when it comes to enforcing the regulations.  As far as taking care of my soldiers I don't think if you ask them right now they'd complain. I'm living in a tent while I made sure they live in two man CHUs, except for the problem child that is. He has his own CHU for safety reasons. It seems no one else wants to live with him and since they threatened to do him bodily harm I can't make anyone else live with him. So it seem the other 18 people in the section share the same opinion of him. But that doesn't matter does it?  

I learn on here from County that it's impossible to please everyone on here but it sure is easy to piss them off.  

lighten up francis!

[sagerat]

Gads, next you guys will be fragging each other.  

Regardless of branch, ranking, or mission, thanks for your current and former service.  Now for gawd's sake everybody don their gear and go for a nice ride.  That's an order.  

[nater]

I've learned over the years that you can not make everyone into a good soldier. Some you can't even make into a soldier. It used to be that these individuals were weeded out during basic training but basic today is like the baseball league where every team gets a trophy. They try not to fail anyone. They don't even have to meet the standard. They only have to do 80% of the standard to pass in basic now. So what really is the standard???? When I was a platoon sergeant for AIT I started every cycle with 192 new soldiers. The average who graduated was 75. Now if they fail a test they get another 3 chances to pass it before they are re-cycled.  Yes, 4 chances to pass the exact same test. They don't even give them a different version. The exact same test. How would you of liked that when you were in school? "I'm sorry, you failed the test but we're going to give you another 3 tries at it before we flunk you".  

What did it accomplish? Now the kid knows that A)  knows he can be caught B) it will cost him C) he isn't as slick as he thought he is.   Since he's lost rank and he actually is acting like a better soldier but he's only doing it so that he doesn't get in trouble again. The kid was in the unit for 8 months and had been written up by his section sergeant 5 times for being late to formation. That in of it's self could of gotten him an Article 15 but he whined to the 1SG. Now his section sergeant has to waste time and personally wake his ass up everyday. When it came time to deploy, he claims he couldn't find his ACH (helmet) and some other gear. He said someone must of stole it. His other soldiers are of the opinion he pawned it. He got a statement of charges for the gear.  Over here there is free laundry service but the kid wouldn't take his clothes to get washed. He'd keep wearing the same dirty clothes.  We made him take his clothes there. I made his sergeant bring me his drop off sheet to prove he was doing it. He complained to the CSM that I was singling him out. So now I have to have everyone turn in their slips to me even though he was the only problem.  Seeing a pattern here? Then after the statement of charges were taken out of his pay he complained he was broke and didn't have any money when he was told needed to buy a new hat because the one he had is unservicable. (we are deployed so where does his money go? buying shit over the internet instead of saving it like most others)  A few days later $320 goes missing out of his roommates wall locker. That same day the problem child is seen buying pizza for dinner, and has an new $280 xbox (still no new headgear though)  We couldn't prove he stole the money and he wouldn't confess. He just stood there with a grin on his face the whole time because he knew if he didn't confess we couldn't do anything.   If this was a civilian job he would of been fired.  But we can't fire you in the military.   So what did I do? I waited till he did something I could get him on. I've been doing this for over 20 years and have seen dozens of others like him. I knew it would only be a matter of time.  He broke the regs and I got him on it.   Don't like the reg? I don't write them, but I will use them to my advantage. If I have a tool in my tool box I'm going to use it.  Now the kid won't try and get over as much for the rest of his enlistment and he is barred from re-enlistment so I've done the army two favors.  


Alex, you are correct in your statement.  I have one of the worse CSM's of my career right now.  He's not a bad guy. He just doesn't do anything, at all, bad or good which makes for a really bad Sergeant Major.  He's a ROADY (Retired On Active Duty)

Now I see where you are comming from.  I've been there and done the Army thing myself.  I was going off of what you wrote earlier--which didn't add up at the time.

[NoGear]

For those who think I'm the only "dick' in the process let me educate you on UCMJ:

First his Team Leader (SGT/E5) writes him up and brings it to the attention of his Squad leader (SSG/E6) who then brings it to me if he thinks it's above his level. I then take it to the Company Commander and  RECOMMEND an Article 15.

The Company Commander (CPT/O3) decides whether to hold an Article 15 or not. If so he goes to JAG who then reviews it to say if it's a punishable offense or not.

If JAG says it is then the CPT reads the soldier the charges. The soldier can then seek legal advice.  At the second reading  the soldier can present any evidence in his favor. Afterwards the CPT DECIDES guilt or innocence.  Later, the CPT  DECIDES the punishment the soldier receives if found guilty.  At that point the soldier can ask for the judgement to reviewed by the next higher command. In any case, even if not asked, the Battalion Commander (LTC/O5) reviews it to make sure that everything was done in accordance to UCMJ.  

So as you can see, at least 5 other individuals decided the soldier needed punishment so I am not alone here. I do not have the authority to administer punishment. Only a Commander can impart justice. NCOs only can recommend and supervise the administration of the punishment.


For those of you who have been out for awhile the Army today isn't the same Army it was even 6 years ago. The standards have fallen so much in an effort to get people to enlist it is almost unbelievable. Along with the standards there isn't any discipline anymore and top that off with how these kids were raised compared to 20 years ago it has the military almost impotent to even impose discipline.  It's no wonder the Army has had 154 suicides over the past 155 days.  Basic training no longer weeds out individuals who don't belong in uniform. Lets be honest, wearing the uniform isn't suited for everyone.

Alex, I apologize. The fact that your MOS doesn't afford much opportunity for leadership growth doesn't mean that you are capable of it.  I was wrong and will admit it.  And yes I do know more about it than most and more than I ever wanted to.  I have a 1LT who's desk is right next to mine who used to be an enlisted musician and her husband still is an SSG in a band.  I have to listen to all of her "band camp" stories LOL...  

As far  as being jealous of his job being able to make more on the outside, nope, not at all. After I broke my back and had to learn how to walk again, I got rid of the ruck and became MI. I'm an Intelligence Analyst who specializes in counter-terrorism, which is why I was called back.  Intel Analyst starting pay on the outside is $130,000. That's with only 4 years experience.  Having both the antiterrorism officer basic and advance courses and having attended the Naval Post Graduate School as an enlisted I make a lot more than that.

[GTS_Rider]

You likely could have explained it better from the start instead of saying you didn't like the guy.  From what you've posted here he sounds like a real problem child and maybe the heavy handed enforcement of regulations was necessary...

+1

Upon further explanations, it sounds like the kid deserved what he got, +1 rep to you for that. I apologize for inferring you are/were a dick. Still can't say it better than Bigfoot, you coulda splained it better from the start, other than painting yourself 'I didn't like him', power trip dick...

Ehh, I'm outta this thread because I 'thankfully' don't speak the military language    

[NoGear]

+1

Upon further explanations, it sounds like the kid deserved what he got, +1 rep to you for that. I apologize for inferring you are/were a dick. Still can't say it better than Bigfoot, you coulda splained it better from the start, other than painting yourself 'I didn't like him', power trip dick...

Ehh, I'm outta this thread because I 'thankfully' don't speak the military language    

Sorry I didn't think about having to defend it but given how things normally go on here I should of thought about that.

[desertxxrider]

What so tough about riding and texting...we used to write letters while riding in the old days.

[Pitts2112]

This has turned into the most entertaining thread I've seen in a long time!

Dead horse properly beaten, and it's got nothing to do with riding, anyway.

Thanks for the entertainment, NG!