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Topic: Is China the New Global Economic Power?  (Read 405 times)

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« on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:28 PM »

http://www.foxbusiness.com/investing/2012/06/13/putting-china-power-in-perspective/


A new survey from Pew Research says more Americans now view China as the world’s top economic power over the U.S., 41% to 40%. And a majority of survey responders in Germany (62%), Britain (58%), France (57%) and Spain (57%) say China is the world’s top economic power. Pew found a median 42% in 21 nations say China is the top economic power, versus 36% saying it’s the U.S.

It’s the perception, not the reality, that often matters.

And because China says it has been growing at such a torrid rate for years, it’s captured the imagination of many around the world that it is a burgeoning superpower. China passed Germany as the biggest exporter in 2009 and has overtaken Japan as the world's second-biggest economy. But just listen to the Chinese themselves.

A full 48% of people in China told Pew Research in this same survey they feel the U.S. is the top economic power, versus 29% saying it’s China. For more see here: http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/06/13/chapter-1-views-of-the-u-s-and-american-foreign-policy-4/

China’s GDP is still about half of the GDP in the U.S. Morgan Stanley says if the United States regains its GDP growth rate at about 2.5% -- not happening just yet -- and China slows to 6.5%, which is where it’s headed, then the United States will contribute 23% of global growth in 2012, outstripping China’s 18% share.  

But China has been notorious at faking its government statistics. Which is why for years, the smart China watchers like to compare actual electricity usage and freight traffic to China’s reported data showing an economic miracle.

Even China advocate and investor Jim Rogers doesn’t trust China's government's numbers on growth.

China’s debt-to-GDP ratio is 89%, says Beijing-based research firm Dragonomics. That’s still worse than the United States’ ratio at 79% by 2015, though the U.S. ratio here is eroding. Stephen Green, an economist specializing in China at Standard Chartered Bank, has also already estimated that China’s total debt to GDP ratio is in line with what Dragonomics figures show.

But China’s debt picture is worse than insolvent Portugal, which is 83% of GDP.

Also, the credit rating agency S&P has China’s debt rating stuck at AA-, the fourth highest level, due to its sizable contingent liabilities in its banking system. An estimated one quarter of the building projects in China have reported no revenue since 2007.

Local government debt is thought to have trebled to a quarter of China’s GDP, much of it stuck in off-balance sheet vehicles. And Moody’s Investors Service has reported that China likely understated its local government debt by $540 billion last year, bigger than its state auditor has estimated.

But China has a growing 160 million in the middle class, a number second only to the US. Still, they represent less than one out of eight of the Chinese population.

And China is relatively poor when measured by income per person, at $4,500 versus the $47,000 per capita in the U.S., among the richest. China’s biggest competitive edge is its cheap labor, but workers are demanding higher wages as the population ages.

Still, U.S. median annual income grew by an anemic 2% between 1990 and 2010, and that’s not good. And China owns an estimated $1.16 trillion in U.S. debt. China prints yuan to hold down its value so as to keep its exports dirt cheap. It then uses that extra printed currency to buy U.S. debt.

The United States is the global center for the auto, computer, finance, aerospace and other industries, data show.

The China vs. U.S. economic superpower story is really about whether the dollar will still be the world’s reserve currency.

UBS already has this to say about why the dollar will continue to keep its reserve status in the world markets:

* US Treasury market’s depth and liquidity was why it was one of the few, large financial markets to function smoothly during the global financial crisis of 2008. Even throughout the debt ceiling crisis, the downgrade crisis, and now the eurozone crisis, U.S. ten-year yields remain at historic lows, around 1.6%, levels not seen since the U.S. government capped yields after World War II to deal with economic recovery.

*Foreign currency markets are illiquid, unstable or not transparent to accommodate central bank reserve flows.

*The eurozone’s problems have kept the euro on dubious footing, with the European Central Bank shouldering the burden of keeping it strong by raising interest rates. Japan’s massive debts, the largest in the world, have kept the yen on unsound footing. Swiss debt markets are tiny.

*The Chinese government’s tight, protectionist capital controls hinder inflows to the renminbi.

*The U.S. has solid political relations with most of the planet’s largest foreign reserve-holding countries. That keeps the dollar on sound footing, too. Those countries are Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

*Overall, a strong U.S. defense gives these countries shelter, making it in their interests to protect the dollar, and their own holdings, in the global currency markets.

*The U.S. has flexible monetary policy: True, this upsets monetary hard-liners who detest the fact that the Federal Reserve’s quantitative easing policies have blown out its balance sheet to a seventh of the U.S. economy.

*But the U.S. central bank for now can still set monetary policy independently, unlike central banks overseas. (It’s increasingly being drawn into political fights, however.)

*However, individual eurozone countries can’t do much on their own to alter the course of the euro to support their own economies, and they can’t set interest rates or pursue separate exchange rate policies to support their economies.



Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/investing/2012/06/13/putting-china-power-in-perspective/#ixzz1yMxeyFzO][/i]
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« on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:28 PM »

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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 02:16:05 PM »

Interesting article...but now I remember why it was so easy to sleep through my college econ course.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:21:24 PM by stew71 » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 02:22:40 PM »

Well this will end up in PO in short order.  
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 02:29:56 PM »

It can go either way.

China's economic growth is largely due to cheap labor...which is changing fast.

More so China has built giant "ghost cities" because that is the brilliant (sic) economic plan of the national party.  Metropolises with hardly anyone living there because nobody in China can afford the cost to live in them.

Their heads up their butts strategy can ruin their economic dominance as quickly as it helped them to attain it.
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 02:40:55 PM »

I think with their large labour pool, authoritarian government and sizeable land area, China has what it needs to remain a powerhouse and will eventually surpass the US as the economic giant of the world.

It is unfortunate that a lot of manufacturing has left for the shores of Asia, it has eroded the traditional base of the North American economy. They tell us we'll be a "service based" economy from now on. When will they ship those jobs offshore as well? China has bankers, insurance salesmen and techies....and can produce more trained people than we can with their vast populace.
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 03:04:27 PM »

One of my Taiwanese-American co-workers recently went back to China after a 10-year absence.  She was shocked at the price of goods and real estate.  She said not many can afford to live in the high rise apartments yet they keep building more.  I also read in another business news article that there is fear of a “Chinese Bubble” due to the state allowing borrowing to go at low, low rates in order to spur real estate developments, yet these developments are not currently being profitable or “occupied”.  This recent article seem to echo these findings.  

As for manufacturing gone to Asia, yes it has for low-cost consumer goods.  However, recent economic data suggests longer term consumer goods like autos and appliances is growing stronger in N.A.  In fact the current economic rise, however small, in N.A. is due to this “shift” or increase in N.A. manufacturing.  If you look at auto manufacturing, there is a great deal of expansion going on in Mexico and the US from makers ranging from VW to GM.  There is widespread speculation that Chinese growth is or already is contracting so the focus of manufacturers are switching over to the N.A. market for recent growth.  

I don’t think any of these will suddenly spell doom for China.  They have the work ethic, drive, and motivation to go to the top eventually.  Just remember, what goes up fast, must eventually come down hard.  We just saw that happen in 2008.  But if you have investments in China, beware of what is propping up their rapid expansion.  

The Euro-zone had been experiencing economic wealth until their bubble burst.  Now they are relying on almost one economy to prop up the currency and economic zone:  Germany.  This just goes to show, you can’t have too many entitlements and spenders and just a few producers and expect the system to continue!
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 07:15:06 PM »

Being the largest economy doesn't guarantee prosperity.  Nor does being less than #1 denote poverty.  We've been number one for decades but many others countries have higher standards of living and more stable economies.  

I think GDP per capita, employment rate, and standards of living are really more important than pure GDP and are a better indicator of economic strength.
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 07:15:06 PM »


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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 10:26:18 PM »

I think that most of SE Asia is experiencing some severe economic growth pains.   They are unable to sustain certain demand markets, and are intentionallly forcing exchange rates to remain beneficial to there own needs.  They are making similar mistakes to Japans in the 80's.  Personally I think that German policies in Europe and the fact they are a (if not "The") major driving force in the value of the Euro, make "The Fatherland" the next most likely global economic power.
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 11:17:09 PM »

One thing I did note on the report was wages in China.

Household income in the entire country is pretty dismal. For instance, a worker that moves from the country to say Beijing could not afford to own a home in that city in a million years. Think of trying to buy a Manhattan Penthouse on a McDonald's salary. (House prices in Beijing equal those of other large cities) I think the wealth disparity there between rich and poor may cause a whole lot of civil unrest down the road. (of course this could happen here also)

I could have transferred there about 5 years ago, and my underling actually took the job. He is paid in US dollars and they can't wait to see him go home as his salary in the manufacturing plant equals almost the entire factory floors wages. Back at that time our CEO boasted that he could hire 26 Chinese workers for the cost of one American worker. (And they actually worked much harder there)

Their Government is working hard to up the average income to turn their economy into a more consumer based one instead of an export based economy.

Here are some 2004 wages stats in China.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 09:01:30 AM »


Their Government is working hard to up the average income to turn their economy into a more consumer based one instead of an export based economy.

Here are some 2004 wages stats in China.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml



It's working.  I think China has now surpassed the US as the largest car market in the world.  This is spured on by higher wages, a strong emergence of a middle class, and low borrowing rates.  The Chinese want to be just like Americans.  A car in every garage, a garage in every home.  I think they will get there in another 15-20 years.  When you have that kind of drive in a society, it shows.
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 08:38:51 AM »




It's working.  I think China has now surpassed the US as the largest car market in the world.  This is spured on by higher wages, a strong emergence of a middle class, and low borrowing rates.  The Chinese want to be just like Americans.  A car in every garage, a garage in every home.  I think they will get there in another 15-20 years.  When you have that kind of drive in a society, it shows.


There are actually more Capitalists in China than there are people in the USA. I can tell you that they are very astute business people who are very crafty at negotiating deals. I remember that back in my pulp & paper days, large Chinese customers would hold off placing orders for wood pulp. (We are talking ship fulls here) Then as the little pulp mill's warehouse started bulging at the seams, they would place an order 3 times larger than normal after they had beaten down the negotiated price. Of course soon the Canadian mill owners caught on and when the Chinese delegation arrived at the mill, the warehouse would be empty (all the pulp was sitting in rail cars down the road)

Showing off your wealth is far more important in China than is the USA, so I think it is safe to say they will one day become a much larger consumer society than the West. A business man in Beijing will spend 1.5hours in traffic so he can be seen by all in his Mercedes, rather than take a 10 minute train ride to work.







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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 09:09:12 AM »

Really?  Wow.  That is interesting to know.  I think it's the same in the Middle East.  They are "showy".

Don't forget though, Americans invented the showy mentality.  I see that every day here.
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