Unions Upset At Airbus For Not Giving Unions Easy Access

[spd2918]

I wonder how the lazy American union workers compare to the lazy European union workers.

Amazingly I bet we lose when measuring final productivity even though you basically have to hire 2 people for every job in Europe.  

"American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States “leads the world in labor productivity.”"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20572828/ns/business-world_business/t/un-us-workers-are-worlds-most-productive/#.T_Rbp_UUNvY

[JonS]

"American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States “leads the world in labor productivity.”"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20572828/ns/business-world_business/t/un-us-workers-are-worlds-most-productive/#.T_Rbp_UUNvY

Interesting! I always assumed that the Germans would be on top. Maybe the month long Summer holiday, they have, is the difference.

[stevent]

Yurp, Unions suck alright. Still I'm making $40 an hour at my Union job to read all this stupid bullshit


 

[Redbandit14]

Yurp, Unions suck alright. Still I'm making $40 an hour at my Union job to read all this stupid bullshit


 

Which just drives home the point that unions suck. They cover for the lazy .

[UFO]

Yurp, Unions suck alright. Still I'm making $40 an hour at my Union job to read all this stupid bullshit


 

America...fuck yeah!!!

[UFO]

For some reason, physical labour is seen as work for dullards and should be compensated accordingly. I would bet diamonds against dog shit that a garbage man works much harder than a white collar E-mail surfer.

Stress.....you deserve more money for something that you can eliminate from your life? No matter what the garbage man does, the he still has to dump your dirty diapers into a truck. Not only that, he gets to do it rain or shine while the white collar namby-pamby degree holding whiners watch from their personalized cubicle.

I'm in a union and I'm going to make over 100k this year as well. I only have a college degree though, I guess I'm only half as good as the intellectuals that don't get dirty.
 

Oh please.    Wages should be based on talent and ability to fill a job.  Almost anyone can fill a garbage man job, or tightening a bolt on an assembly line.  That's monkey labor.

Not many people can fill jobs designing planes or microchips or cars or motorcycle engines capable of putting out 200 hp.  Yet a f'ing garbage man gets the same wage (or better)?  Yeah, makes sense to me.

Yes, I know you love you union entitled pay.  You can keep it knowing you are robbing another 2 people of a job.

[olderigetfasteriam]

Oh please.    Wages should be based on talent and ability to fill a job.  Almost anyone can fill a garbage man job, or tightening a bolt on an assembly line.  That's monkey labor.

Not many people can fill jobs designing planes or microchips or cars or motorcycle engines capable of putting out 200 hp.  Yet a f'ing garbage man gets the same wage (or better)?  Yeah, makes sense to me.

Yes, I know you love you union entitled pay.  You can keep it knowing you are robbing another 2 people of a job.

What is the matter? No garbage pick up today?  

[stevent]

Which just drives home the point that unions suck. They cover for the lazy .

Or perhaps they provide an avenue for people who have worked at learning a skilled trade to advance and through collective bargaining earn a decent wage for their efforts. But I guess if you'd rather sit on your ass and complain about people getting paid more than you then go ahead, no skin off my nose..

[Redbandit14]

Or perhaps they provide an avenue for people who have worked at learning a skilled trade to advance and through collective bargaining earn a decent wage for their efforts. But I guess if you'd rather sit on your ass and complain about people getting paid more than you then go ahead, no skin off my nose..

We have union people in my office. That is  NOT the case.  Boy is that not the case.

And posting this just proves it.

Yurp, Unions suck alright. Still I'm making $40 an hour at my Union job to read all this stupid bullshit

[caasland]

Too much emphasis is placed on the difference between blue and white collar labor, as if one is needed and the other isn't, or one is bad the other good, etc.  

But let's take a step back, I'm sure we can all agree that there is some skill in turning wrenches (ever stripped a bolt? Or done something mechanical the hard way?). Sure, most of us can figure out how to adjust our valves, but we can't do it as efficiently as someone who has done it 45 times and has the right tools for the job. It doesn't look like it takes a lot to be a garbage collector, until we think about the responsibility of maneuvering a big truck in tight spaces, the mental fortitude of working in heat, cold, rain, sleet, and stink, and above all, the total lack of mental stimulation. I couldn't do it. But the flip is true of white collar workers as well. We're not all paper pushers. Some of us create the products our businesses are based on, and we do so as efficiently as we can to beat our competitors. Or we think up new ways to do it. Or we find new markets to sell them in. Or help find ways for our customers to finance them, to make them affordable. We need the sales people, engineers, assembly-line workers, delivery truck drivers, IT administrators and operators, janitors, payroll and tax accountants, HR personnel, compliance officers, visionary leaders and operation executives. Someone has to figure out the garbage truck routes, how much to charge a customer, where to take the trash, etc. We need all of these people - we all go to work, and trade our skills and abilities and time in exchange for a salary to maintain whatever lifestyles we have.

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that nearly all of us are "workers" to some extent or another, whether we work with our hands or brains or both, regardless of our level of education.

However... we can't ignore that there is a tension between the two groups. Somewhere along the line, long before I started working, physical laborers gained a disdain for pencil-pushers. Pencil-pushers consider physical labor to be beneath them, and management stupid because they don't know the technical details of how pencils are pushed. It simply be a case of robbing power from another person by putting them down, or justifying why I SHOULD GET PAID MORE THEN SOMEONE ELSE. Our politicians capitalize on this too - think about this the next time you hear Romney try to explain how "he's just like the rest of us" or when Obama say's Romney is out of touch and we need to help "working families". They're dividing us into demographics and using our prejudices against our fellow citizens for their own political gain. Or at least whichever group is paying for their campaign.

Statements like "I would bet diamonds against dog shit that a garbage man works much harder than a white collar E-mail surfer." and "Almost anyone can fill a garbage man job, or tightening a bolt on an assembly line.  That's monkey labor." are examples of the "us vs them" mentality which says a lot more about the person saying it than the realities of the jobs performed and their compensation. It shows an ignorance of how wages are set compared to the work to be done and the ability to fill the position.

It doesn't matter how dirty or intellectual the job requirements are ... what matters is the supply and demands of workers able and willing to perform the work, and the supply and demand of the businesses who have work that needs to be done. If there aren't many willing to work as garbage collectors and demand is high, then the wages go up. If there are many kids graduating with teaching degrees in music and no demand for them, salaries will go down. Unions and government positions distort this supply and demand by artificially reducing the supply of labor by raising barriers to entry and not removing the inefficient. Businesses seek to distort the supply and demand by increasing the supply of labor and reducing the requirements of the work. In the end, parastic unions can only suck so much out of the host business until there is zero profit or the work is outsourced ... businesses can only suppress wages to a certain point before they can't find any good talent.

But when unions exist in government positions ... look out ... because they will spend money to lobby the politicians to increase the taxes on the rest of us to fund their salaries. In this case there is no check or balance, and thus many would argue that unions should not be present in government. When a business wants to increase salaries, they must create and sell more or do it more efficiently ... government entities can just petition for higher taxes. When one side gets too much political power it will implode.

---- and that's my rant ----

You were treated to my rant only because today is July 4th and I'm off work. Tomorrow I work again ... and I will refuse to get sucked into a long political argument while I am being payed for other things, so don't expect me to participate much going forwards.

[The Shepherd]

Oh please.    Wages should be based on talent and ability to fill a job.  Almost anyone can fill a garbage man job, or tightening a bolt on an assembly line.  That's monkey labor.

Not many people can fill jobs designing planes or microchips or cars or motorcycle engines capable of putting out 200 hp.  Yet a f'ing garbage man gets the same wage (or better)?  Yeah, makes sense to me.

Yes, I know you love you union entitled pay.  You can keep it knowing you are robbing another 2 people of a job.

You ever work on an assembly line? It's not fun, it's hot, miserable and physically taxing.

Your engineers get to work in an air conditioned paradise, free coffee and the local radio station playing the best soft rock of the 80's in the background. Maybe if they convinced the boss they could do without the creature comforts, everyone would get a raise.  

As for myself, I work a skilled job for which there is little training. My performance is based on my ability to troubleshoot and then repair various computer, radio and electronic systems that all work together. This equipment is also safety critical, you have to repair the equipment properly and test it or the chance of death or catastrophic property damage could be severe.

Your typical cubicle dwelling troll isn't capable of working under that type of stress, with white collar bosses on the conference line, in all types of weather, in the back 40, nowhere near a toilet......

I guess I'm way overpaid though, someone who works a cushy indoor job with no stress told me so.  

[falconati]

Just because someone doesn't like unions, it doesn't mean that there is no appreciation or value for the work of skilled trades.  I'll be the first to acknowledge that good skilled workers are smart, able to build and create where many engineers just design.  They are valuable because they add value to the company.  The same is true for unskilled workers.

The issue with unions is not about the color of the collar.  There are plenty of white collar unions out there.  The issue (for me) is that a union shop creates a kind of martial law environment where everyone looses freedoms for the sake of the collective good.  How American does that sound?  

In most, if not all union shops, you pretty much must join the union to get the job.  So the employee does not have the freedom to choose to work for a company without joining the union.  And in many cases, unions create golden handcuffs for their members, making it hard to change jobs or companies beyond what the union will allow.  The employers no longer have the freedom to hire or promote who they want even though they own the business.

If a union had confidence in what they had to offer, they'd let employees decide if they want to join the union (without the strong arm tactics) based on the promise of higher wages and benefits or go it alone and work for the company without the union benefits and protection.  

If they believed in what they have to offer, they'd let employers hire who they want but promote the fact that the union workers are better trained and more productive.  The employers can decide if the higher paying union workers are truly more productive and worth the extra cost vs the lower wage non-union workers.  But unions are not competitive and will never allow either the workers or employers the freedom of choice.

Again, just so their's no confusion.  It's the value of the unions at issue here, not the value of the professional, skilled, and unskilled workers.

+1.  This is exactly what I wanted to type, but couldn't put it as well as you did.  I agree.

[Cheddarhead]

But when unions exist in government positions ... look out ... because they will spend money to lobby the politicians to increase the taxes on the rest of us to fund their salaries. In this case there is no check or balance, and thus many would argue that unions should not be present in government.

QFT

That is the crux of my rationale for supporting ACT 10 in Wisconsin...There is no place for a Union in an environment where the "bosses" are elected by the populace...because, in such situations, there is no independent voice for the taxpayers.

[falcofred]

You ever work on an assembly line? It's not fun, it's hot, miserable and physically taxing.

Yea, these guys are miserable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX7KlUgdCDk

[NinjaLady]

Yea, these guys are miserable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX7KlUgdCDk

This helps explain the last Chrysler product I owned.  

[stevent]

That's half a dozen people out of the many thousands employed at that plant. And it was their own fellow workers who turned them in. Are you questioning their integrity?

I'm pretty sure there are similar numbers of white collar works enjoying liquid lunches too, maybe even at the company you work for.

[Cricket1]

That's half a dozen people out of the many thousands employed at that plant. And it was their own fellow workers who turned them in. Are you questioning their integrity?

I'm pretty sure there are similar numbers of white collar works enjoying liquid lunches too, maybe even at the company you work for.

White collar UNION workers, or non-union workers?  You see, there are lots of white collar union workers too. 

[JonS]

Oh please.    Wages should be based on talent and ability to fill a job.  Almost anyone can fill a garbage man job, or tightening a bolt on an assembly line.  That's monkey labor.

Not many people can fill jobs designing planes or microchips or cars or motorcycle engines capable of putting out 200 hp.  Yet a f'ing garbage man gets the same wage (or better)?  Yeah, makes sense to me.

Yes, I know you love you union entitled pay.  You can keep it knowing you are robbing another 2 people of a job.

OK, try installing HVAC equipment in high rises and Hospitals. Then get back to me.
 That' what I spent my over paid work years doing. By the way, no seniority, no pay if you weren't at work. No slacking off or you were gone.

[Rogue]

I think most of us understand, from what others have clearly stated, it’s not about white collar/blue collar.  In the world of aerospace manufacturing, it’s fair to assume all the workers are highly skilled people picked from a small pool of skilled people.  This is also why Unions within aerospace are powerful, it’s not as simple as replacing them overnight if there is a problem.  What is clear to see is Boeing and Airbus EADS have been switching their production to non-unionized workers in order to lower their overall costs, minimize labor disruptions, and be more competitive against China.  Recent moves by Boeing, which have angered the Unions echo this.  The fact is, if both these aerospace giants do not make this change then all aerospace manufacturing will someday go to China for the lowest cost alternative.  Then not only does the Union lose, both Europe and the US lose.

Look at what’s happening in Europe.  Their debt crisis has caused their automotive market to tumble yet their production is too high resulting in massive losses in that industry.  As much as GM, Ford, and others wanted to shut down European plants to reduce over production, they could not due to powerful unionized labor with strong government support.  The result is massive losses in Europe that is now threatening whole companies.  The question then becomes, do you kill the body to save the arm or cut off the arm to save the body and hopefully later grow another arm when the economy picks up?  The reason why the US auto sector is so strong right now is that they were able to renegotiate and/or shut off factories that were overproducing, in addition to shedding a great deal of the massive benefits and pensions Unionized labor were receiving.  Unions are both good and bad and too much of it will cause the death of manufacturing as a whole in this country.  

Perfect example of the high costs of Unionized labor is Volvo and Saab in Sweden.  We all know what happened to Saab.  But the same thing is now happening in Volvo.  Volvo is one of the few automotive companies taking losses in the US.  Not because their cars are no good, but their costs are too high.  So now Volvo is desperately seeking a US partner to manufacture cars in the US to lower their costs and be more competitive.  Saab’s labor and pension costs were also too high and GM was not willing to absorb the losses Saab was experiencing.  Even with the possibility of a Chinese buyout, Saab production would simply have gone to China.  In a free market economy, production will seek out the lowest cost alternative if this alternative produced the same product with similar quality.  The desire of Unionized labor to force big pensions, and bigger and bigger paychecks, raise the prices of their products and lower a company’s overall profitability.  Since there is a lower cost alternative, the company will seek to survive by switching production there.  We forget that companies exist for profit, not to employ.  Employment is just a means to an end.  In the end, both the company and its labor pool need each other and they need to work together to come up with an equitable plan that is both sustainable and acceptable for all parties.  When there is an imbalance then the free market economy will force the balance to occur at some point by killing the company along with everyone in it, or switching production to location that favors the company.  

[Redbandit14]

.

We forget that companies exist for profit, not to employ.

Yup. that in fact is the main business. Whether the make planes,trains , automobiles or anything else. Profit for the shareholders  is there only reason for being.

Most people don't recognize that little fact. Complicated of course when the goverment is a shareholder.