Panigale 1199 a performance flop?

[atadaskew]

When all the journos went on the mfg release of the Panigale, they said it was a game changer/ground breaker/toast maker etc etc superbike.

But... all the comparo tests that I have read so far (American ones) show it to be mid pack, behind old school, old tech Japanese bikes.

So... what gives?  The old 1198 seemed to have done better in these comparos, and at least it had its insane torque to give it unbeatable low/midrange punch to give it an edge.
The Panigale has lost that Vtwin characteristic - it now 'needs' to be revved out - and yet still seems to be a work in progress.

What do you lot think?

[Mac]

What do you lot think?

I think its purdy!!  

[Orson]

What do you lot think?

Depends on the paint job.

I read on the innernet that the tricolore scheme is worth 15% power, even at a standstill.

Guzzi could easily match these power gains, but they choose their paint from whutever spray cans are available down at the local Mandello hardware store.

[veefer800canuck]

We shall see next year, when they hand it to Checa.

The Panigale is currently leading the 1000 SuperStock class.

119 to 88 over BMW.

[DogBoy]

Any 150+hp 1200cc v-Twin needs to rev. You're not going to get more hp without pushing the powerband up the rev range. All the big bore sportbikes are so damn good these days that comparison tests are just exercises in splitting hairs. Paginale sales will remain strong.

[UFO]

Any 150+hp 1200cc v-Twin needs to rev. You're not going to get more hp without pushing the powerband up the rev range. All the big bore sportbikes are so damn good these days that comparison tests are just exercises in splitting hairs. Paginale sales will remain strong.

^^^ This.

I don't even read magazines or online comparos anymore.  All the bikes are absolutely stellar.  Buy what you like, not something that is .1 gram lighter, or .00856393s faster lap time.

[st2sam]

Any 150+hp 1200cc v-Twin needs to rev. You're not going to get more hp without pushing the powerband up the rev range. All the big bore sportbikes are so damn good these days that comparison tests are just exercises in splitting hairs. Paginale sales will remain strong.

100% correct, end of story.  It's a power difference you'd never be able to use (feel) on the street.

My two cents.
When I read the comparo's I always look for which bike is best on the street because that's where I'm riding it 99.9% of the time.
You gotta admit the 1199 is one pretty bike that has more power than any mortal could use. (on the street)
IMO it's too bad the Honda (ABS) is about $5,000.00 cheaper and a better street ride, because I WANT the Ducati but the Honda makes more sense...

[atadaskew]

My point is the 1199 viewed as a stock/street bike, not how it performs in races.

Point being, when the S1000RR came out, it instantly vaulted to the top of the street bike standings.  The Panigale, meant to be much better than the 1198, sits in the same spot as the 1198 in group tests.

As street bikes go, what I really like about big v-twins like the 1198 is the way they make so much torque in the low to mid range.  because crazy peak power is pretty much unusable on the street.
But the Panigale has lost the 1198's torque kick, replaced with a top end punch that really is not so useable.

Maybe what Ducati now needs is to bring out a new modern day SS model.  Basically a more rational 1198, more streetable now that the 1199 has taken over race duties.

[DogBoy]

My point is the 1199 viewed as a stock/street bike, not how it performs in races.

Point being, when the S1000RR came out, it instantly vaulted to the top of the street bike standings.  The Panigale, meant to be much better than the 1198, sits in the same spot as the 1198 in group tests.

As street bikes go, what I really like about big v-twins like the 1198 is the way they make so much torque in the low to mid range.  because crazy peak power is pretty much unusable on the street.
But the Panigale has lost the 1198's torque kick, replaced with a top end punch that really is not so useable.

Maybe what Ducati now needs is to bring out a new modern day SS model.  Basically a more rational 1198, more streetable now that the 1199 has taken over race duties.

All Ducati needs to do is sell bikes. Until sales of $20,000 sportbikes take a dive, they don't need to change anything. Magazine comparison results don't directly relate to sales numbers. The 1098 and 1198 didn't win every comparo and those models sold well.

Were you about to buy a Paginale before the comparos were published?

[ray916mn]

There is only one answer. Quit reading comparison tests and go out and ride one for yourself and make your own judgement.

[miles]

Don't make me Manigale-bomb this thread, too.  I'm warning you.

[veefer800canuck]

Don't make me Manigale-bomb this thread, too.  I'm warning you.

I'll stock up on Eye Bleach, just in case. Can't be too careful when it comes to Manigale.

[GTS_Rider]

Don't make me Manigale-bomb this thread, too.  I'm warning you.

Nooooo!

I will report you to mods if you do that shit again!  

[falcofred]

 I WANT the Ducati but the Honda makes more sense...

BINGO! Ducati is building bikes people want!
Lets face it, here in the USA no one needs a motorcycle, but many want a motorcycle, Ducati is building what people want, what they lust after, dream of.
Honda on the other hand.............the CBR is a great bike, no doubt I couldn't ride it to it's full potential especially on the street, but I don't want one.
The 1199, I want, but can't afford a second expensive tire shredding Ducati in the garage, maybe when they're some used ones in a year or two  

[NuckaMan]

I test rode the 1199.

While the egro's are better for me (narrower and shorter tank), the engine powerband lost's its twin-appeal.

Like some stated before, gotta spin the motor to really get it going....like a I4.

Very pretty too look at and engine note is quite nice.

Take the words of any of the American printed magazines with a grain of salt.... credibility with one went out the window when they called the motorcycle like the 2009 Yamaha R1 a "game changer" on their cover page.

[Silverbird]

People lust after their crotches baked on every ride?

Seriously, though Ducati lied about the HP big time. Everytime a mag hails a new bike as the second coming, I tell myself I'll never buy into it again and wouldn't you know it, they suckered a lot of people once again (including me) about the Panigale.

After all the hype, build-up, R&D, and MotoGP frameless drama, the 1000RR beats it in every legitimate test out there  I'd still take one over any literbike though.

[Aero]

At those horsepower levels it's all academic anyway, you can't use it on the street if you want to keep your licence. It's down to whether you prefer a four or a twin. Should be interesting when they start running them in WSBK though...

Here's Kevin Ash's thoughts...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/9464813/Living-with-the-Ducati-Panigale.html

[honda4ever]

After all the hype, build-up, R&D, and MotoGP frameless drama, the 1000RR beats it in every legitimate test out there I'd still take one over any literbike though.

This sounds like the same rationale that has people buy Harleys.

[Silverbird]

Actually it's because I don't like I-4's anymore.

[atadaskew]

Actually it's because I don't like I-4's anymore.

What about the Aprilia V4 scoot?

Thatsa nice-a bike-a too.

[falconati]

Twice the twin=twice the fun?  

[axelwik]

I rode the S model on our local twisties (Sandia Crest road, near Albuquerque) and thought it was great. Far more flickable and sharper handling than anything I've ever ridden in the past. Power is up high, so had to get used to that, and my butt got a little hot. Did the same exact ride back to back with my supersport and there was just no comparison - other than a few little quirks the Panigale is awesome.

[jfusaro]

Performance flop? I don't think so. I just got to ride my friends 1199S this weekend and its as good as its gonna get for me. Super fast, great brakes, character out the ass and a top end like nobodys business. I have ridden a S1000RR a few times and these two could not be any different but for a mere mortal like myself either would do. I have a MTS 1200s and I'm in the comfortable superbike part of my life but the 1199 would do nice for me for anything under 2 hrs. as its super stiff.  I would have to say the Ducati must have had to do something to it tune/exhaust wise to bring it here but what do I know all I know its more than I would ever need in real world.

[Cowboy 6]

I guess we will have to see how it does in WSBK?

As someone else said, it would be nice to have the Supersport back again. (now that Terblanche is gone and can't screw it up.)

[atadaskew]

I guess we will have to see how it does in WSBK?

Again, people are missing the point.
To the dood who says it it night and day difference to his 20 year old 70 hp Supersport.. Ya think?
To the guy who says it is a fantastic ride... Ya think?

Point is with all the incredible hype, head to head against current old tech Japanese bikes, it only bests the Yamaha.  The long in tooth Honda, GSXR, and new Kawi all positively smoke it on the street.

Of course it is a performance flop.  The incredible mid range is now gone.  Replaced with peak powah that still does not best I4s on the street or track in street form.
And of course it is an incredible ride. As all these bikes are, but that's not the point, is it?  Not when it is touted as a game changer.

[expatbrit]

Of course it is a performance flop.  The incredible mid range is now gone.  Replaced with peak powah that still does not best I4s on the street or track in street form.
And of course it is an incredible ride. As all these bikes are, but that's not the point, is it?  Not when it is touted as a game changer.

Key words: "On the Street". Is it a "performance flop" if it doesn't achieve on the street?

Personally, I don't think so. I don't believe it was built to be a success on the street (and I think that's a shame, too, but that's beside the point). It's built to be the best track/race bike Ducati can build within a price envelope.

Then they sell it on the street.

Is it practical?

Is that engine tuned for the street?

Is it a bike I'd want to ride on the street?

The answer to all of the above is no, but I don't want to ride a supersport 600 that also lacks mid-range, etc, either. It's a technological marvel, and great at it's purpose. Shame that's not the purpose that 95% of the people who buy it really want.

[atadaskew]

The latest issue of SportBike just dropped.

1198S vs MV Agusta vs Aprilia RSV

Duc was last on the track, and last on the street.

Dood, this bike has taken a beating in the press.

[Orson]

To be fair, having to wear a man-purse cuts into your lap times.

 

[expatbrit]

The latest issue of SportBike just dropped.

1198S vs MV Agusta vs Aprilia RSV

Duc was last on the track, and last on the street.

Dood, this bike has taken a beating in the press.

Doh. Hadn't seen that one. Comment rescinded.

[Flightar]

Some people forget the one and only reason Ducati makes this bike...to win races in WSBK, AMA SBK, etc. This is a bike that they sell because they have to do so, if they want to race it. Winning magazine articles was not even on the radar. Alot of people that just gotta have a Duck won't buy a Japanese bike because it just dosent have the character, sexiness, bling, curb appeal, snob appeal, or whatever reason you come up with to justify your choice. Then again alot will because they are not Ducatisti, but garden variety enhusiasts. (like me)

This bike was made for exactly the same reasons the OW-01, YZF-R7, RC30, RC45, and the RC51, were built...to serve as a flagship, but more importantly to win races. Ducati won't care less if the competition is better on the street or in comparisson tests...as long as they are kicking ass on the track.

[Croak]

Some people forget the one and only reason Ducati makes race bikes is to sell street bikes.  Winning races in WSBK, AMA SKB, etc is all about sales.  The Panigale is the bike they race because they sell it.  Winning magazine articles is just as important as winning races...  

[Flightar]

Disagree...Ducati sells street bikes like the 1199 because they win races, and have to sell them in order to race them...after that you have the fact people think they are cool, kind of like an Italian Harley. Its the same story with Ferrari. The old man didn't give a crap about building street cars but it was a way to pay for racing, so he built them.

This philosophy dosent work though with bikes like the Monster, Hyperstrada, MTS (although winning the Pikes Paek dosent hurt), or Diavel. Those serve a completely different ddynamic.

Look at it any way you'd like though.

[falconati]

Disagree...Ducati sells street bikes like the 1199 because they win races, and have to sell them in order to race them...after that you have the fact people think they are cool, kind of like an Italian Harley. Its the same story with Ferrari. The old man didn't give a crap about building street cars but it was a way to pay for racing, so he built them.

This philosophy dosent work though with bikes like the Monster, Hyperstrada, MTS (although winning the Pikes Paek dosent hurt), or Diavel. Those serve a completely different ddynamic.

Look at it any way you'd like though.

You're wrong, Croak is right.  They're not interested in racing for the sake of racing.  They're interested in turning a profit.  If they can also win races, or if winning races helps increase their profitability, that's great.  But that's just a part in the process.

[SLK50]

Racing is a cost of doing business and falls under
marketing. That's why there's a "racing budget".
It's not the raison d'être.

[jfusaro]

Win on Sunday sell on Monday

[black hills]

A Ducati not performing up to factory hype????    we should ask Nicky Hayden about this, or better yet Vale

[veefer800canuck]

Since they suck so much, I know where to get one dirt cheap.

Ssssh, it's HOT.

[atadaskew]

Win on Sunday sell on Monday

I'd prefer to lose on Sunday, and sell on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

You can have Monday.

[1KPerDay]

There is only one answer. Quit reading comparison tests and go out and ride one for yourself and make your own judgement.

You have a 999R?

[Silverbird]

Only a fool would choose their ride by it winning in race trim the day before.

[black hills]

Only a fool would choose their ride by it winning in race trim the day before.

And that is what marketing is all about

[Croak]

Only a fool would choose their ride by it winning in race trim the day before.

Lotta fools out there.  Enough to comprise a profitable market segment.

You might know them by one of their many street name, such as "Squids", "Starbuccaneers", "Crotchrocketeers", etc.  

[Silverbird]

 

Guess I didn't think very hard about that one.  

[Virginian]

This guy just put an epic 15,000 cross country trip on Panigale S ABS. This ride report is amazing as his insights, demeanor and photo taking abilities are changing peoples lives that read it. Pour a beer or three and take a gander. Dogboy and UFO nailed it with their responses.

Here's a quote on why he chose the Panigale:
Choosing a bike for a trip isn’t unlike choosing what bike to purchase. Too many struggle with what they want vs. what they 'think' they should get. My advice has always been: "Get the f'ing bike you lust after. Write the check, max the card--you won't regret it." Not everyone follows that advice, but anyone who's ever owned a bike understands that sentiment the moment they are out cruising around and feel a pang of regret when someone goes by on the bike they really wanted. And so the same logic went into my decision on what bike I wanted to do this trip on: the bike had to get my rocks off.

Oh I was apprehensive--new model bike: strike one. New model ITALIAN bike—strike two! Cross country trip on a ‘torture rack’? Strike three! Errr....not a good idea. Actually, probably a really stupid idea. But it's the ‘stupid’ things we do that we remember the most. All too often the 'good' decisions we make we forget or regret. But the stupid ones? Ahh, those are the memory builders and the building blocks for great stories and adventures that make you smile and laugh years later.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=808437

[falconati]

That was a good read!

[Virginian]

That was a good read!

Glad you took the time. Freak'n amazing journey.

[st2sam]

Glad you took the time. Freak'n amazing journey.

 
I've been reading from almost day one. The guy is a excellent writer and darn good with the camera.

I'm pretty sure Ducati has acknowledged him and I'm bet'in it was the "bike & coyote" pictures!  

[Virginian]

 
I've been reading from almost day one. The guy is a excellent writer and darn good with the camera.

I'm pretty sure Ducati has acknowledged him and I'm bet'in it was the "bike & coyote" pictures!  

Wait till you get the end. Ducati threw him a bone by paying his way to Circuit of America's last weekend. He deserves it for his efforts. Amazing ride report.

[atadaskew]

Only a fool would choose their ride by it winning in race trim the day before.

Well then it's a good thing the 1199 is such a good street bike.  Much better than any of its rivals.

[Silverbird]

Well then it's a good thing the 1199 is such a good street bike.  Much better than any of its rivals.

Really?  Seems to come in last place in the rag comparos I see, but those suck anyway. From what I've read it would make a terrible streetbike and on it's best day equal to a 1000RR.  I did get a chance to check out that heat that roasts your ass and I couldn't live with it, now way.

[expatbrit]

Really?  Seems to come in last place in the rag comparos I see, but those suck anyway. From what I've read it would make a terrible streetbike and on it's best day equal to a 1000RR.  I did get a chance to check out that heat that roasts your ass and I couldn't live with it, now way.

I suspect there was the slightest hint of sarcasm in the 'good street bike' reference. Maybe.