Alberta and NEP ... How do you like the new CHINA EP ? EH !

[bubba zanetti]

All my adult life I have heard about Alberta fighting the the notion of then PM Trudeau, for a National Energy Program ... you can hardly raise the name of Trudeauin Alberta since.

Wow ... I guess we just got ourselves a China Energy Program with barely a hic up or a bark ... so tell me ... how the fuck does that work ?

Eh ??


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/07/cnooc-nexen-takeover.html

I loves me some capitalism ... it sure is good for the country.  

A criminal regime, that deny's simple freedoms ... now owns a chunk of the oil patch.  Amazing. Simply amazing.

[Mike-H]

Typical federal government  (input any political party name in reality) short term gain....long term loss.....selling the country out from under the people without a care for the future ....hey the liberals are wanting a substitute  teacher with zip experience (born with a silver spoon up his butt) to lead their party over an experienced former astronaut (amongst other credentials)....so should we be surprised @ anything politicians due    

[blkhrt81]

All my adult life I have heard about Alberta fighting the the notion of then PM Trudeau, for a National Energy Program ... you can hardly raise the name of Trudeauin Alberta since.

Wow ... I guess we just got ourselves a China Energy Program with barely a hic up or a bark ... so tell me ... how the fuck does that work ?

Eh ??


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/07/cnooc-nexen-takeover.html

I loves me some capitalism ... it sure is good for the country.  

A criminal regime, that deny's simple freedoms ... now owns a chunk of the oil patch.  Amazing. Simply amazing.

Because these are two entirely different things Jim. The foreign companies still have to abide by Canadian rules and regulations regarding environment, hours of work and tax regime. The NEP was a change in the rule structure and it did have a hugely detrimental affect on the oilpatch of the time.

[Kootenanny]

Hmmm...oil sands...what are they gonna do with all the oil they produce?  Won't be shipping it by pipeline to Kitimat any time soon...

BTW, I'm kinda with Bubba on this one--don't like to see Chinese state-owned oil companies owning very much Canadian natural resources.  From everything I've heard and read, the Chinese government has a different idea of "natural conservation" than most Canadians; my concern is that Chinese concerns may end up influencing Canadian policies on things like pipelines.  

[veefer800canuck]

I don't like it. Not one little bit.

FYI: I work for an Alberta owned oil company.

[PatM]

Typical federal government  (input any political party name in reality) short term gain....long term loss.....selling the country out from under the people without a care for the future ....hey the liberals are wanting a substitute  teacher with zip experience (born with a silver spoon up his butt) to lead their party over an experienced former astronaut (amongst other credentials)....so should we be surprised @ anything politicians due    

I dunno. Garneau is a nice chap but is also the nerdy type. I don't think he would be any more successful than Dion or Igy. I agree with you about Trudeau. Not a good choice for the Liberals. They need a strong leader or they'll be in opposition for a long time.

As for Nexen, don't like it either. The question is can Canada afford to say no?

[Mike-H]

I dunno. Garneau is a nice chap but is also the nerdy type. I don't think he would be any more successful than Dion or Igy. I agree with you about Trudeau. Not a good choice for the Liberals. They need a strong leader or they'll be in opposition for a long time.

As for Nexen, don't like it either. The question is can Canada afford to say no?

Should have done it in conjunction with (joint ownership) these foreign  government owned companies until they prove themselves to play fair & keep their word

[Flyer]

Should have done it in conjunction with (joint ownership) these foreign  government owned companies until they prove themselves to play fair & keep their word

Like our "government"?
 

I don't care for the deal either, but no other country I know of can capitalize our oilpatch...
...and as we all know, capitalization is the Mother of Business, which is Good.

[ST1300Rider]

I don't care for the deal either, but no other country I know of can capitalize our oilpatch...
...and as we all know, capitalization is the Mother of Business, which is Good.

Sad but true. Until Canadians themselves have the inclination and ability to fully fund the capitalization we will have foreign investment and ownership. It's just a question of picking your bedmate(s).

[bubba zanetti]

Because these are two entirely different things Jim. The foreign companies still have to abide by Canadian rules and regulations regarding environment, hours of work and tax regime. The NEP was a change in the rule structure and it did have a hugely detrimental affect on the oilpatch of the time.

Oh I hear you. I did look heavily into the NEP some years ago and Lougheed was right to object. I just had to bring it up here to stir the pot Bill. It is far too quiet in here lately.    

Yet ... it is a serious issue. Sole foreign ownership should be off the table. Partnerships and an initial partial buy should be the agenda. You prove yourself over ... hmm ... say a ten year period, then we consider foreign ownership. Eh ?  

[bubba zanetti]

Hmmm...oil sands...what are they gonna do with all the oil they produce?  Won't be shipping it by pipeline to Kitimat any time soon...

BTW, I'm kinda with Bubba on this one--don't like to see Chinese state-owned oil companies owning very much Canadian natural resources.  From everything I've heard and read, the Chinese government has a different idea of "natural conservation" than most Canadians; my concern is that Chinese concerns may end up influencing Canadian policies on things like pipelines.  

Strange bedfellows indeed ! Yet you are so right about a fragile resource that needs to be exploited judiciously. Pipelines where? To China?
Instead of just ownership get them to invest in emerging refining and processing industries. I am tired of buying back a crap product, made from a scarce local resource.

But I will say again. This is a corrupt regime. I would out source anywhere in the world but these assholes. But not our oil.

[Kootenanny]

Bubba, it seems we agree on this.  I'm just not comfortable with the Chinese government owning too much Canadian resource.

If they were to invest in Canadian refining and processing, OK then...but I get the feeling the goal here is to purchase Canadian crude, then ship it to China for processing (where it will be less expensive, in part due to lower environmental standards).  This, of course, would require the construction of new pipelines in BC, either through to Kitimat or down to Vancouver...the crude's not worth much if they can't move it.

And yeah, the oil must be processed judiciously.  I wonder at the "boom" mentality so prevalent in Alberta...haven't they ever heard that "boom" is often followed by "bust?"  The oil's not going anywhere, and the market is unlikely to go away anytime soon...I'd prefer to see oil sands expansion slow down a bit, just cool off a bit and plan more long term.

[mikebr]

Bubba, it seems we agree on this.  I'm just not comfortable with the Chinese government owning too much Canadian resource.

If they were to invest in Canadian refining and processing, OK then...but I get the feeling the goal here is to purchase Canadian crude, then ship it to China for processing (where it will be less expensive, in part due to lower environmental standards).  This, of course, would require the construction of new pipelines in BC, either through to Kitimat or down to Vancouver...the crude's not worth much if they can't move it.

And yeah, the oil must be processed judiciously.  I wonder at the "boom" mentality so prevalent in Alberta...haven't they ever heard that "boom" is often followed by "bust?"  The oil's not going anywhere, and the market is unlikely to go away anytime soon...I'd prefer to see oil sands expansion slow down a bit, just cool off a bit and plan more long term.

Why can't Canada refine and process oilsands  

[Mike-H]

Because that would be (1) creating jobs @ home, thus pissing off the tree huggers .....(2) keep Canadians employed (oh no ).....& finally....it would make sense ....& politicians hate anything that make sense ....just saying

[Kootenanny]

Because that would be (1) creating jobs @ home, thus pissing off the tree huggers ..

"Creating jobs at home" is exactly the thing that does NOT "piss off the tree huggers."  I live in BC, where people in the interior LIKE to see sawmills operating.  What we DON'T like is seeing raw logs being exported, to be processes somewhere else--especially when there are BC sawmills shutting down for lack of timber.

Granted, however, part of that lack of timber is due to poor foresight on the part of the industry, which has somewhat painted itself into a corner--all the "easy" old growth timber is pretty much gone, so the choice is either old growth that is hard to access, or 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) growth timber, which takes some decades to mature and is being outstripped by the rate of cutting.  We actually cut less timber now than we did a decade ago, while at the same time we can mill it much faster and more efficiently--all with more automation and fewer people.

Oil is going the same way.  "Easy" deposits are getting tapped out, so oil that is harder to access (such as the oil sands) is becoming profitable.  But shipping crude oil directly to China is like exporting raw logs.  The difference is, oil doesn't grow on trees...

[Flyer]

...and trees don't grow on oil sands.

[Kootenanny]

...and trees don't grow on oil sands.

Actually, they do...until, of course, the area is cleared and mined...



Don't get me wrong...I do not protest the extraction of oil from the oil sands (or "tar sands," a more descriptive term), but rather the escalation of development there.  Everyone seems to want to get the oil out NOW! with little or no concern for the future of the industry (or protection of the environment).  I favour the idea that development of the "oil sands" should proceed more slowly--"judiciously," as Bubba puts it--with an eye to still having industry there in, say, 50 years (and with northern Alberta not being completely turned into a wasteland of sand heaps and polluted lakes).

I also protest the idea of pipelines through relatively pristine wilderness, delivering crude oil to ports in the fjords of the BC coast for shipping to support rampant industrialization in countries with little or no environmental control.  The hazards and negative implications of this far outweigh any short-term gain.

[Baz]

Well I can comment now.  

1st of all Nexen equals about 3% of the entire oilsands lease area. While existing companies here such as Syncrude can claim to be a Canadian company, here is the actual truth.

Syncrude Owners The Syncrude Project is a Joint Venture undertaking among Canadian Oil Sands Partnership #1, Imperial Oil Resources, Mocal Energy Limited, Murphy Oil Company Ltd., Nexen Oil Sands Partnership, Sinopec Oil Sands Partnership and Suncor Energy Oil and Gas Partnership, as the project owners, and Syncrude as the project operator.

Canadian eh?  (Most of the other projects are partnerships also).

Nexen is actually one of the few oilsands players that upgrade their bitumen to synthetic crude. So to claim that the Chinese purchased Nexen to hook up a tanker to and export raw bitumen to China is way out in left field. The reason for the purchase is to tap into Nexen's technology to use on their shale plays back home to develop on their own. Nexen currently and will continue to upgrade and sell to primarily the North American market.

(This will i hope, answer Kootenanny's concerns)

2nd of all.

The federal Government does NOT own this resource. The province of Alberta does. So unless the federal Government wants to change the constitutional act, development of all natural resources remain in the hands of each Province. Pierre Elliot Trudea's plan in essence ripped up the Constitutional act of 1867, and why it failed. Any future ideas such as this one would be challenged also fail.

I wonder what the folks of BC would do if the Fed's came along and said "we now own all the trees in BC and we are taking over the industry?"

Under the CONSTITUTION ACT, 1867, the original provinces of Confederation retained ownership of crown lands and resources within their boundaries. When BC and PEI joined Confederation in 1871 and 1873, they too retained ownership of natural resources. But when the Prairie provinces were created (Manitoba in 1870, Alberta and Saskatchewan in 1905) a new and controversial policy emerged. In these provinces, ownership of natural resources was retained by the federal government to provide funds for colonization and railway building. Not until 1930, after a sometimes bitter political struggle, were natural-resource rights transferred by the federal government to the Prairie provinces.

Now here are some statistics for you guys. Last year something like 32 Billion dollars worth of infrastructure building was announced in the Ft. Mac area. That amount is equal to the combination of all infrastructure projects in Canada. (Government and Private). This should give you the scope of what sort of capital is required to fully develop the Oilsands. Which by the way will take another 20 years at least to fully develop.

There is no way in God's green earth that the Federal Government could even fund a small portion of what is needed in capital here. PetroCanada was formed to be our National Oil Company (Another leftist pipe dream) Before they were swallowed up by Suncor, PetroCanada was developing more projects in Nigera than they were in Alberta. In fact to date, PetroCanada only developed one small SAGD operation in Fort Mackay that produces a thimble full of raw bitumen each day. (So our venture into State Run Oil was a complete failure if you want to count jobs created at home)

I own a minority part of a small oilsands SAGD company. While we have a lease agreement with the Provincial Government, we do not actually own the resource, but develop it in partnership with the Province of Alberta via a royalty program. (Every barrel that is produced and sold, we pay a percentage on in a very complicated formula) If we for a minute broke the terms of our agreement we would loose our lease, and be put out of business. So would Suncor, so would Nexen. The general public feels that once you own a lease you just have to scoop up the oil and send it where you want. (It is as far from the truth as you can get)
Our company is presently searching out a partner (It will more than likely be a foreign one) in order to develop our lease to its full potential. If we can't find one, we will remain a very small player which has now created all the jobs possible. If we find one, we will create more operational jobs, more service jobs and more jobs in the manufacturing field across North America and overseas. By the way, everyone working at our site is from somewhere else in Canada.

Now I have many friends living on the left coast with a "screw Alberta" attitude. If you spent anytime in Fort. McMurray you would realize just how much the Oilsand's mean to BC and other Canadian Provinces. The ex mill towns of Campbell River, Gold River, Mackenzie just to name a few are staying alive right now thanks to jobs those ex mill workers have in Ft. Mac.

I came out of the Pulp & Paper industry and can tell you their are many of my old clients which are now my new clients. So if you have ever heard the saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you" it applies here. There is so much development going on here that companies are having to source manufacturing work out all over the world because there just is not enough manufacturing in North America to handle it locally. I work for a company that manufactures vessels and closures to the oil & gas industry (This is what pays the bills). We are getting requests for quotation from our offices in Europe and the far East, just  because there are two year backlogs in equipment here.

Now back to the actual oil business.

Refining/upgrading is a very margin poor business. Yes, refining all the bitumen in Alberta sounds really nice but here is why that will never happen.  There has not been a new refinery built in North America in something like 40 years. (This gives you a little insight on how much money refining does not make) Increasing refining capacity in North America would be silly, as the trend (and the right one) is to decrease consumption). It is much more efficient to retrofit an old refinery to upgrade bitumen into gasoline than it is to build a new refinery. (Keeping in mind we do not have the manpower here to do this anyway). There are also other factors such as infrastructure, water supply etc. Also, it is not economically feasible (or safe) to ship a tanker full of finished gasoline over to Asia.

But back to the Nexen deal. You are either a free market country or a socialist state owned mess. You can't go around and say "Canada is open for business, we want to trade with you" and then say "but don't think of setting foot on our soil". You can't have your cake and eat it too. I am pretty sure that this Nexen deal will open many doors for Canadian companies in China.

[Kootenanny]

(This will i hope, answer Kootenanny's concerns)

Thanks for this.  A well written post, overall.  I will, however, continue to harbour a few concerns.

Oh, and as an Albertan myself by birth, with still a lot of family there, I would certainly never have a "screw Alberta!" attitude.  However, living as I do (and have for most of my life) in BC, I also do not believe that the rights of Albertans to sell oil should trump the rights of BCers to protect their ecology.  A pipeline itself poses large enough risks (especially when constructed and operated by a company with such a laissez faire attitude as Enbridge has displayed); tanker traffic up Douglas Channel would pose far more.  

Rather than thinking 20 years down the road (the term you suggested the tar sands development would continue), why not think 50 years down the road, 100 years, even further?

[Baz]

Thanks for this.  A well written post, overall.  I will, however, continue to harbour a few concerns.

Oh, and as an Albertan myself by birth, with still a lot of family there, I would certainly never have a "screw Alberta!" attitude.  However, living as I do (and have for most of my life) in BC, I also do not believe that the rights of Albertans to sell oil should trump the rights of BCers to protect their ecology.  A pipeline itself poses large enough risks (especially when constructed and operated by a company with such a laissez faire attitude as Enbridge has displayed); tanker traffic up Douglas Channel would pose far more.  

Rather than thinking 20 years down the road (the term you suggested the tar sands development would continue), why not think 50 years down the road, 100 years, even further?

Kootenanny:

Of course I have no concerns about the folks in BC having Ecological concerns, providing they are made from a scientific view and not the present one that uses "lets stop the dirty oil" anyway we can.  Oil tankers, and even single hulled ones have been navigating the inside passage for 30 some years. Yes, they had one incident, but of course their is risk with anything. (I personally feel that Prince Rupert would be a wiser choice than shipping down the Douglas channel).  

Right now many barrels pass daily through Vancouver via rail which is about 99% more risk than pipeline transport. Without the Northern Gateway pipe line, this procedure will grow 100 fold (and so will the risk)

Oil has moved via pipeline from Edmonton to Vancouver through a National park with zero incidents for the last 50 or so years. Pipelines built today are so much more robust than anything built in the last few decades that spillage would be very slim if it happened.

My main contention coming out of BC right now (And please excuse me by generalizing) is the attitude that Alberta oil does not benefit us. Well until those that protest about the need to get something to market stop all use of petroleum products, refuse any Federal transfer money that comes from tax dollars as a result of Alberta oil, and stop taking employment from any oil industry related opportunities, your Province needs to face the reality of things. Instead of asking what is in it for us?  

Sort of ironic we are having this debate on a site that would probably not exist if oil disappeared tomorrow. (I guess we could divert to Horse touring - Net.) Oh but wait, my computer screen is derived from Oil.  

100 years out? Oil hopefully will be so passe.... I believe the calculated end of oil is 2040. (Mankind will probably kill each other by then fighting over it).  





 

[Kootenanny]

Again, I'm enjoying having this discussion with a minimum of animosity.  And you're correct, without oil, none of us would be out there riding motorcycles...

As for the oil currently moving through Vancouver...AFAIK, a fair bit of it comes down by pipeline (Kinder-Morgan, though the Coquihalla canyon, I think).  Plus, of course, the amount by rail.  And, there have been a few spills and other issues--it has NOT been perfectly clean and safe.  I mentioned the "laissez-faire" attitude of Enbridge--that is based on an incident in Michigan in 2010 that was widely publicized here, involving an Enbridge pipeline which sprang a leak and spewed oil for something like 17 hours before Enbridge operators shut it down--over 80% of the 3 million+ litres of oil was released AFTER operators knew there was a major leak.  I agree, rail is a more dangerous way to move bulk oil, except--if there is a rail accident, the oil is compartmentalized, and you only lose as much oil as carried in the car (or cars) ruptured...you'd need to have around 30 cars rupture at once to equal the amount spilled from the pipeline in Michigan.

As for Alberta oil "benefitting" us...well, perhaps, but it's not like we get a special deal on it or anything (gas is always more expensive here, at least); most Canadian oil is sold to the US at going market rates. Not a whole ton of difference than selling it to China, except we don't have to pipe it through mountains to ports on an earthquake-prone coast to be shipped overseas.  As you say, there is risk with everything...that is exactly the problem, there is always going to be risk--and as has been said, while companies operating in Alberta will reap the benefits of getting their oil to market, it is the people living in BC who are being asked to take the vast majority of that risk.  Should there be a spill, the oil companies will continue to produce, continue to ship, and continue to profit, while anyone near the site of a spill will be severely impacted.

Regarding oil in the future--as you say, oil is predicted to "run out" and be replaced by alternative forms of energy at some point in the future (2040?--I have no idea).  But, at this point, there is simply no alternative source of energy known that could replace oil at the level it's used today.  OK, so something is developed, and oil is no longer used as a major energy source--somehow, I get the feeling there will STILL be a market for oil, be it for materials or something else, possibly uses we haven't even thought of yet.  I prefer taking the long view, over the "Get it all and get out while the going's good!" boom/bust thinking that seems to dominate the energy market (you say yourself that oil patch development is proceeding so quickly that suppliers can't keep up...that's a problem, not a good thing IMO).


Oh, and BTW keep in mind that BC is a net contributor to provincial transfer payments

[Baz]

Kootenanny:

As things stand, the market for Alberta has a very captive audience (The United States) and we are selling it to them at a substantial discount that we could be getting in world markets. The pricing discount the US is getting right now will increase as production ramps up here. There is a huge bottleneck shipping oil South, and that is working very well financially for our American friends. As a result, Canadians as a whole are missing out on huge revenues that eventually end up into the transfer payment program. While BC has been a positive contributor to that program, Your recent budget announcements have made it very clear you kids are headed to deficit days. (I believe the number was 2.36 billion for this year).

While I would strongly agree with you that any sort of development should have all the risks carefully assessed, BC has taken the approach of saying no. But we might say yes however if you fill our pockets full of cash. Worried about Earthquakes? I can tell you the L.N.G. terminals that are being built in Kitimat right now get much more nasty than a bit of spilled crude oil. (Lets just say they light up the sky very nicely in the right setting). Have a tank burst and spill LNG into the Douglas channel will be less worse than crude, but never the less nasty. I would have my reservations living next to a LNG facility sitting in an earthquake zone.  

Now back to spillage.

The pipeline screw up with Enbridge was a nasty mess of human error. (Fully Agreed) Shipping oil via rail is one very dangerous way to handle crude oil. The number of rail cars full of crude will quadruple, and well there are many more outside risks affecting a train vs a pipeline. Also a lot greater risk of widespread contamination and cleanup accessibility of train vs. pipeline. Pipelines are designed to shut down during a pressure drop, but in the case you mention, I believe a supervisor made the decision to over ride the alarm. (I am pretty sure that will never happen again).

FYI Here is a map of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. I know it well to Kamloops but don't know where it goes after that. It does however run through Jasper & Mount Robson National Parks.

http://pipeupnetwork.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/tmx-system-map-may-29-2012.jpg

[birdrunner]

Again, I'm enjoying having this discussion with a minimum of animosity.  And you're correct, without oil, none of us would be out there riding motorcycles...




Oh, and BTW keep in mind that BC is a net contributor to provincial transfer payments

GD Hippie ....

And the only reason BC contribute is from the spin off income from all the dope you guys produce.    

[Baz]

GD Hippie ....

And the only reason BC contribute is from the spin off income from all the dope you guys produce.    

I used to think this was the reason for abnormally high Range Rover sales in Calgary but Bubba assured me this was from the Kootenay "Trustafairians".

That industry in BC is under serious threat from legal competition now in WA.  

It seems their pipeline could be drying up.

[Kootenanny]

It seems their pipeline could be drying up.

Hmmm...interesting choice of words...

[bubba zanetti]

snerk  

[Baz]

I am telling you society will fall hard in the Kootenay's without the steady income of a grow operation.

My friends there are going to freak if they have to get jobs.

[Kootenanny]

I am telling you society will fall hard in the Kootenay's without the steady income of a grow operation.

My friends there are going to freak if they have to get jobs.

I don't know who your friends are, but...well I've lived here for 20 years, and although I might joke about it, I don't know a single person who makes their living from growing dope.  I do know one or two who used to--but they tell me the business here isn't what it used to be; since larger "organized crime" groups moved in, growing has become more dangerous.  There's also a lot more competition from urban areas since indoor "grow-ops" became more common (they are vey efficient, grow year-round, and are easier to hide from aerial surveillance--they can be anywhere, even the suburbs).

[ToadRide]

New Brunswick has this subsidy program:


But look what happens when you don't pay the rent.

[Baz]

I don't know who your friends are, but...well I've lived here for 20 years, and although I might joke about it, I don't know a single person who makes their living from growing dope.  I do know one or two who used to--but they tell me the business here isn't what it used to be; since larger "organized crime" groups moved in, growing has become more dangerous.  There's also a lot more competition from urban areas since indoor "grow-ops" became more common (they are vey efficient, grow year-round, and are easier to hide from aerial surveillance--they can be anywhere, even the suburbs).

Kootenanny:

I actually know several (ahem) horticulturalists in the area. They were running indoor grow ops in the area. However I do have an uncanny act for meeting the wrong people. lol. They explained to me that quality control and product strength was much easier in a grow op than on the side of a mountain. In fact I learned that really good stuff can't be grown outside due to mold problems. I also assumed that these people were just not your average pot farmers.  

I have actually had several employment offers of package delivery to Alberta of which I declined.

Don't know if it is still in operation but a few years back the RCMP had one helicopter assigned to your area for the sole intention of spotting unusual foliage. It operated full time during the daylight hours.

About 15 years ago, there were many outside growers there, not so much now. In fact I could almost bet someone that if you socialized in the bar in Nelson on a good night, you could not help but run into a grower. But like you say, not so much now.

[Baz]

I laughed at these photos. Many moons ago when I lived in Jasper, the lodges on the Banff/Jasper highway used to take turns hosting parties. Well one weekend in the middle of an Alberta beer strike, the Park Wardens/RCMP hosted a party in which two pallets containing just about any brand of Canadian beer sat. The pallets suspiciously contained only opened partially drank cases of beer.

One of my coworkers asked one of the nice policeman where they were able to find Canadian beer in the great beer drought. His reply was, "we just found it, Enjoy!" My coworker then asked if they had found any drugs also.  

New Brunswick has this subsidy program:


But look what happens when you don't pay the rent.

[Kootenanny]

Kootenanny:

I actually know several (ahem) horticulturalists in the area. They were running indoor grow ops in the area. However I do have an uncanny act for meeting the wrong people. lol. They explained to me that quality control and product strength was much easier in a grow op than on the side of a mountain. In fact I learned that really good stuff can't be grown outside due to mold problems. I also assumed that these people were just not your average pot farmers.  

I have actually had several employment offers of package delivery to Alberta of which I declined.

Don't know if it is still in operation but a few years back the RCMP had one helicopter assigned to your area for the sole intention of spotting unusual foliage. It operated full time during the daylight hours.

About 15 years ago, there were many outside growers there, not so much now. In fact I could almost bet someone that if you socialized in the bar in Nelson on a good night, you could not help but run into a grower. But like you say, not so much now.

Yeah, this sounds about right.  Backwoods hillside operations are going out of favour AFAIK.  As for the helicopters...I dunno, but...I live in a large open area, which makes it popular for flying lessons and practice--we get quite a few small planes practicing stalls and  other flying basics here.  So of course, there are some locals convinced those small planes are the RCMP looking for crops...

On the other hand, you know things are getting organized when some of the growers are using their own helicopters for transport.  2 or 3 years ago, there was a helicopter seized in a raid just up the valley.  It was painted flat black, and had no registration numbers.  The cops made it known that the owner was welcome to have it back...he just had to come collect it...  (Related to this was the story of a well-known local youth who'd been making a name for himself as an extreme skier...he got his pilot's license, but then he was arrested one night in Washington State during a dope delivery--I think he's still in jail down there.)

[Baz]

OK, so now you want a pipeline?

http://t.news.ca.msn.com/canada/bc-liberals-close-to-backing-oil-refinery

You will need a Northern Gateway pipeline to feed this refinery.

Tree Hugging Socialists are so confusing.

[Kootenanny]

OK, so now you want a pipeline?

http://t.news.ca.msn.com/canada/bc-liberals-close-to-backing-oil-refinery

You will need a Northern Gateway pipeline to feed this refinery.

Tree Hugging Socialists are so confusing.

Well, unless he can get it built in a couple of months, Black won't be dealing with Christy Clark and the BC Liberals any more, anyway.

[Baz]

The really funny thing about this whole pipeline thing is that the BC Government has "zero" influence in the decision to build it or not.

Quite some time ago the provinces signed over all decision making over to the feds, and in return they are faced with zero financial costs of environmental studies and things like that. Things such as transportation routes (a pipeline is considered one) are actually federal jurisdiction.



I am pretty confused about this refinery. An upgrader I could see, but I can't see the practicality of shipping gasoline, jet fuel, etc. to the far east via ship. The location of that refinery would be a poor one to ship finished product to places in North America also. I wonder just how much of a financial study has been done with Mr. Black's investor group.  

Suncor has killed an upgrader for their Fort Hills project on the expectations that there will be a very small future price spread on Bitumen vs Synthetic crude. This upgrader is even half built.  A small refinery would be in the Billion dollar range (Especially in Kitimat or Prince Rupert) and payback comes in the form of a few dollars a barrel over 40 years. This is the number one reason why no new refineries have been built in North America in the last 40 years.

[Kootenanny]

Quite some time ago the provinces signed over all decision making over to the feds, and in return they are faced with zero financial costs of environmental studies and things like that. .

And yeah, Harper's Conservatives have shown just how important environmental studies are to them...

[Baz]

Blame Harper...

Of course you can always listen to David Suzuki who would have all of us re-foresting the planet, restoring wetlands etc, because none of us had any jobs left.



 

[Kootenanny]

Blame Harper...

I do already.  And Peter Kent, too.


Personally, I'd rather have real cream in my coffee than "edible oil product," thanks.

[Baz]

I do already.  And Peter Kent, too.


Personally, I'd rather have real cream in my coffee than "edible oil product," thanks.

Hold on here.... The edible oil product comes from Canola. You will have to discuss that problem with agriculture Canada. (it is really edible oil)

My bitumen sir, does not end up in your coffee.

[Kootenanny]

My bitumen sir, does not end up in your coffee.

I sure hope not!

I don't want it running through my back yard, either.

[birdrunner]

I sure hope not!

I don't want it running through my back yard, either.

ONLY in your GASTANK.

Tell ya what,  buy your oil elsewhere if you don't like where it comes from.

[Baz]

I sure hope not!

I don't want it running through my back yard, either.

It will run my friend, by pipeline or rail car. I can't think of one political party (present or future) that will forego the tax dollars that oil produce.  

Oh of course there are all those green jobs.......

The reality is that that nasty Alberta Oil is keeping quite a few BC towns alive. Last week I met with several ex forestry employee's from Kitimat who are now producing that dirty oil you kids hate so much. Those people would more than likely be on welfare if Alberta oil would just disappear. In fact, a plane load of people leave Kitimat every Wed. to commute to work to this site. The same company also has flights from Kelowna, Cranbrook, Campbell River & Vancouver.

But I am sure if they were not coming to Alberta to their $300 K a year jobs, All those beautiful towns would do fine with minimum wage tourist jobs. Somehow all those nice BC people I talk too every day would make their mortgage payments on the jobs that are left in those towns.

 

[Str8]

Baz is right. If you had to choose between an oil pipeline or a natural gas pipeline in your back yard, you definitely want the oil.

[Kootenanny]

Baz is right. If you had to choose between an oil pipeline or a natural gas pipeline in your back yard, you definitely want the oil.

Why?

[Kootenanny]

...that dirty oil you kids hate so much.

Of course...father knows best!

[Baz]

Why?

16000 psi of real kaboom.



Oh, and let us not start a debate about ecological nightmares of fracking either.  

[Baz]

Of course...father knows best!

Father want's to know what you run your motorcycles on there in BC?  

[birdrunner]

Father want's to know what you run your motorcycles on there in BC?  

Pixie Dust of course.

[Str8]

Why?

Generally speaking, I find people do not appreciate the dangers with pressure equipment.

Here is how I explain it: If you were standing 5' from a 36"lg x 6" diameter cylinder pressurized to 2000PSI with natural gas and it ruptured, it would kill you. If you were standing 5' from the same cylinder filled with oil and it was pressurized to 2000PSI, you probably would get oil on you.

This is the reason we test newly constructed pressure equipment with water and not air.

[alphabet man]

Generally speaking, I find people do not appreciate the dangers with pressure equipment.

Here is how I explain it: If you were standing 5' from a 36"lg x 6" diameter cylinder pressurized to 2000PSI with natural gas and it ruptured, it would kill you. If you were standing 5' from the same cylinder filled with oil and it was pressurized to 2000PSI, you probably would get oil on you.

This is the reason we test newly constructed pressure equipment with water and not air.

I wish this thread was 5' from a 36"lg x 6" diameter cylinder pressurized to 2000PSI with natural gas and it ruptured    

[birdrunner]

I wish this thread was 5' from a 36"lg x 6" diameter cylinder pressurized to 2000PSI with natural gas and it ruptured    

What's the matter boy,  can't handle the pressure.?

[alphabet man]

What's the matter boy,  can't handle the pressure.?

 HAHA pressure    pun intended.... you just keep fueling my toys and never mind all the rest of the stuff  

[Kootenanny]

Father want's to know what you run your motorcycles on there in BC?  

Everyone realizes (well, almost everyone) that we live within an oil-based infrastructure, and that of course oil extraction is going to occur.  That is not the issue.  

The issue is that the oil industry in Alberta always has to charge so hard.  It's not like the market for oil is gonna go away anytime soon.  According to you, the oil industry in Alberta is so hard up for people it's flying them in from BC and paying them $300K a year.  Meanwhile, they're pushing hard for a pipeline so they can get that oil to foreign markets (specifically, China...)--I can only assume because they predict production will outstrip domestic consumption.

Why is it that North American industry always seems unable to take the long view on anything?  If the goose that laid the golden eggs showed up in an Albertan oil company boardroom, they'd gut her to look for more eggs...

[Str8]

Everyone realizes (well, almost everyone) that we live within an oil-based infrastructure, and that of course oil extraction is going to occur.  That is not the issue.  

The issue is that the oil industry in Alberta always has to charge so hard.  It's not like the market for oil is gonna go away anytime soon.  According to you, the oil industry in Alberta is so hard up for people it's flying them in from BC and paying them $300K a year.  Meanwhile, they're pushing hard for a pipeline so they can get that oil to foreign markets (specifically, China...)--I can only assume because they predict production will outstrip domestic consumption.

Why is it that North American industry always seems unable to take the long view on anything?  If the goose that laid the golden eggs showed up in an Albertan oil company boardroom, they'd gut her to look for more eggs...

You nailed this one. They are a greedy bunch.

300k a year? And free flights? Guess I'm moving to BC.  

[PatM]

Everyone realizes (well, almost everyone) that we live within an oil-based infrastructure, and that of course oil extraction is going to occur.  That is not the issue.  

The issue is that the oil industry in Alberta always has to charge so hard.  It's not like the market for oil is gonna go away anytime soon.  According to you, the oil industry in Alberta is so hard up for people it's flying them in from BC and paying them $300K a year.  Meanwhile, they're pushing hard for a pipeline so they can get that oil to foreign markets (specifically, China...)--I can only assume because they predict production will outstrip domestic consumption.

Why is it that North American industry always seems unable to take the long view on anything?  If the goose that laid the golden eggs showed up in an Albertan oil company boardroom, they'd gut her to look for more eggs...

Yes, you're right, the oil industry want's it quickly. But the problem they have is that because they can't deliver it at a low cost, they have to sell it at a much lower price than what the Brent is going for. Brent is around $100 per barrel.  From what I read, they can get something like $64 per barrel while their cost is around $80. If that is true, they are losing money. And if they are, those $300 K per year salaries will go away for a while.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/crude-glut-price-plunge-put-oil-sands-projects-at-risk/article4230759/

[Baz]

Here lies the real issue.

If the pipeline gets built to the west coast, Alberta (and the rest of Canada) will not be selling oil for $30.00/bbl below world market prices. This will in turn result in higher tax revenues for Alberta, and also result in higher transfer payments to the rest of Canada. Technically we are now giving away 30% of Canadian oil revenues to the USA as a gift in the form of discounted crude prices. Those lost revenues are a loss for all of Canada, not just Alberta.

 
Kootenanny:

Most of the large producers are making money with costs around the current $45 bucks a barrel (some have costs around $15.00 bbl. Because of climbing construction costs, most new projects need to budget at $75.00+ a barrel. If the price/barrel does not rise, projects get shelved (as has happened recently with Suncor) On that note, a whole slew of manufacturing jobs as fare away as Europe, the far east, and closer to home the USA and Canada disappear. The lost jobs in Canada mean that Provincial and the Federal Governments will see a whole lot less tax revenue. This will mean of course that all will suffer. (Including all the laid off BC Forest workers which now have construction & trade jobs in Ft. Mac.).

If any of you believe for one second that BC, or any other Province in Canada sees little benefit from a strong industry here, then you really need to investigate just how many manufacturing jobs are created from our "nasty oil industry". I do not have the latest data, but two years ago, there were more construction project dollars being spent in Ft. Mac, than in the entire country combined.

The $300,000 dollar operating jobs in Ft. Mac will stay, but fewer Quebec buses, fewer Ontario built automobiles & equipment will be ordered. Yes, that even means that the small fabrication shop in New Westminister, or Prince George will be laying off people.  


I don't know, but perhaps that fairy dust the Bird speaks of will make up the lost revenue.

[blkhrt81]

And IF shale oil in the US turns out like the projections, that market is going to be a lot smaller. At that point, access to overseas will be very important.

[veefer800canuck]

Generally speaking, I find people do not appreciate the dangers with pressure equipment.

Here is how I explain it: If you were standing 5' from a 36"lg x 6" diameter cylinder pressurized to 2000PSI with natural gas and it ruptured, it would kill you. If you were standing 5' from the same cylinder filled with oil and it was pressurized to 2000PSI, you probably would get oil on you.

This is the reason we test newly constructed pressure equipment with water and not air.

Str8, where you at boy? You're near me.

[Str8]

Str8, where you at boy? You're near me.

Scared to say, case someone decides to launch a 36" x 6" cylinder at me.  

South then East of you.

[Str8]

Scared to say, case someone decides to launch a 36" x 6" cylinder at me.  

South then East of you.

Did I say east? What a loser. I'm in the Edson area, that be a bit West.

[birdrunner]

Did I say east? What a loser. I'm in the Edson area, that be a bit West.

That's put you close to Mikebr

[veefer800canuck]

Did I say east? What a loser. I'm in the Edson area, that be a bit West.

[threadjack]

I won't call ya a loser for living in Edson, you're closer to the mountains than me.

We need to go for a ride sometime.  

Jasper -> lunch, Miette -> relaxation.

[/threadjack]

[Baz]

That's put you close to Mikebr

I thought he was on the inside of a storage container heading to the land of really obnoxious accents.  

[veefer800canuck]

I thought he was on the inside of a storage container heading to the land of really obnoxious accents.  

Jersey??    

[birdrunner]

I thought he was on the inside of a storage container heading to the land of really obnoxious accents.  

Dare to dream ....

[mikebr]

I thought he was on the inside of a storage container heading to the land of really obnoxious accents.  

HEY... Im still here.  

[Str8]

Haven't seen the Norge.

[birdrunner]

HEY... Im still here.  

Well,   I DID cut a few holes in the top for air.

Now rub the lotion on its skin.

[mikebr]

Well,   I DID cut a few holes in the top for air.

Now rub the lotion on its skin.

 Charming...know who my friends are in Canada.   and I want two boxes before I depart.  

[mikebr]

I thought he was on the inside of a storage container heading to the land of really obnoxious accents.  

Just jealous.. Canadian females love the Kiwi Accent..well some do  

[Baz]

Just jealous.. Canadian females love the Kiwi Accent..well some do  

I was sent on a business trip to NZ for the 1st time, and my Australian boss says to me...

"Baz, your going to love New Zealand. Some of the most beautiful women in the world.... Until they open their bloody mouths"

I can't tell you just how true that piece of advice presented itself once I spent an evening in a Christchurch singles bar.  

However I have always had a wonderful time there

[Flyer]

Duct tape; truly the gift that keeps on giving.