Alberta and NEP ... How do you like the new CHINA EP ? EH !

[Kootenanny]

Again, I'm enjoying having this discussion with a minimum of animosity.  And you're correct, without oil, none of us would be out there riding motorcycles...

As for the oil currently moving through Vancouver...AFAIK, a fair bit of it comes down by pipeline (Kinder-Morgan, though the Coquihalla canyon, I think).  Plus, of course, the amount by rail.  And, there have been a few spills and other issues--it has NOT been perfectly clean and safe.  I mentioned the "laissez-faire" attitude of Enbridge--that is based on an incident in Michigan in 2010 that was widely publicized here, involving an Enbridge pipeline which sprang a leak and spewed oil for something like 17 hours before Enbridge operators shut it down--over 80% of the 3 million+ litres of oil was released AFTER operators knew there was a major leak.  I agree, rail is a more dangerous way to move bulk oil, except--if there is a rail accident, the oil is compartmentalized, and you only lose as much oil as carried in the car (or cars) ruptured...you'd need to have around 30 cars rupture at once to equal the amount spilled from the pipeline in Michigan.

As for Alberta oil "benefitting" us...well, perhaps, but it's not like we get a special deal on it or anything (gas is always more expensive here, at least); most Canadian oil is sold to the US at going market rates. Not a whole ton of difference than selling it to China, except we don't have to pipe it through mountains to ports on an earthquake-prone coast to be shipped overseas.  As you say, there is risk with everything...that is exactly the problem, there is always going to be risk--and as has been said, while companies operating in Alberta will reap the benefits of getting their oil to market, it is the people living in BC who are being asked to take the vast majority of that risk.  Should there be a spill, the oil companies will continue to produce, continue to ship, and continue to profit, while anyone near the site of a spill will be severely impacted.

Regarding oil in the future--as you say, oil is predicted to "run out" and be replaced by alternative forms of energy at some point in the future (2040?--I have no idea).  But, at this point, there is simply no alternative source of energy known that could replace oil at the level it's used today.  OK, so something is developed, and oil is no longer used as a major energy source--somehow, I get the feeling there will STILL be a market for oil, be it for materials or something else, possibly uses we haven't even thought of yet.  I prefer taking the long view, over the "Get it all and get out while the going's good!" boom/bust thinking that seems to dominate the energy market (you say yourself that oil patch development is proceeding so quickly that suppliers can't keep up...that's a problem, not a good thing IMO).


Oh, and BTW keep in mind that BC is a net contributor to provincial transfer payments

[Baz]

Kootenanny:

As things stand, the market for Alberta has a very captive audience (The United States) and we are selling it to them at a substantial discount that we could be getting in world markets. The pricing discount the US is getting right now will increase as production ramps up here. There is a huge bottleneck shipping oil South, and that is working very well financially for our American friends. As a result, Canadians as a whole are missing out on huge revenues that eventually end up into the transfer payment program. While BC has been a positive contributor to that program, Your recent budget announcements have made it very clear you kids are headed to deficit days. (I believe the number was 2.36 billion for this year).

While I would strongly agree with you that any sort of development should have all the risks carefully assessed, BC has taken the approach of saying no. But we might say yes however if you fill our pockets full of cash. Worried about Earthquakes? I can tell you the L.N.G. terminals that are being built in Kitimat right now get much more nasty than a bit of spilled crude oil. (Lets just say they light up the sky very nicely in the right setting). Have a tank burst and spill LNG into the Douglas channel will be less worse than crude, but never the less nasty. I would have my reservations living next to a LNG facility sitting in an earthquake zone.  

Now back to spillage.

The pipeline screw up with Enbridge was a nasty mess of human error. (Fully Agreed) Shipping oil via rail is one very dangerous way to handle crude oil. The number of rail cars full of crude will quadruple, and well there are many more outside risks affecting a train vs a pipeline. Also a lot greater risk of widespread contamination and cleanup accessibility of train vs. pipeline. Pipelines are designed to shut down during a pressure drop, but in the case you mention, I believe a supervisor made the decision to over ride the alarm. (I am pretty sure that will never happen again).

FYI Here is a map of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. I know it well to Kamloops but don't know where it goes after that. It does however run through Jasper & Mount Robson National Parks.

http://pipeupnetwork.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/tmx-system-map-may-29-2012.jpg

[birdrunner]

Again, I'm enjoying having this discussion with a minimum of animosity.  And you're correct, without oil, none of us would be out there riding motorcycles...




Oh, and BTW keep in mind that BC is a net contributor to provincial transfer payments

GD Hippie ....

And the only reason BC contribute is from the spin off income from all the dope you guys produce.    

[Baz]

GD Hippie ....

And the only reason BC contribute is from the spin off income from all the dope you guys produce.    

I used to think this was the reason for abnormally high Range Rover sales in Calgary but Bubba assured me this was from the Kootenay "Trustafairians".

That industry in BC is under serious threat from legal competition now in WA.  

It seems their pipeline could be drying up.

[Kootenanny]

It seems their pipeline could be drying up.

Hmmm...interesting choice of words...

[bubba zanetti]

snerk  

[Baz]

I am telling you society will fall hard in the Kootenay's without the steady income of a grow operation.

My friends there are going to freak if they have to get jobs.

[Kootenanny]

I am telling you society will fall hard in the Kootenay's without the steady income of a grow operation.

My friends there are going to freak if they have to get jobs.

I don't know who your friends are, but...well I've lived here for 20 years, and although I might joke about it, I don't know a single person who makes their living from growing dope.  I do know one or two who used to--but they tell me the business here isn't what it used to be; since larger "organized crime" groups moved in, growing has become more dangerous.  There's also a lot more competition from urban areas since indoor "grow-ops" became more common (they are vey efficient, grow year-round, and are easier to hide from aerial surveillance--they can be anywhere, even the suburbs).

[ToadRide]

New Brunswick has this subsidy program:


But look what happens when you don't pay the rent.

[Baz]

I don't know who your friends are, but...well I've lived here for 20 years, and although I might joke about it, I don't know a single person who makes their living from growing dope.  I do know one or two who used to--but they tell me the business here isn't what it used to be; since larger "organized crime" groups moved in, growing has become more dangerous.  There's also a lot more competition from urban areas since indoor "grow-ops" became more common (they are vey efficient, grow year-round, and are easier to hide from aerial surveillance--they can be anywhere, even the suburbs).

Kootenanny:

I actually know several (ahem) horticulturalists in the area. They were running indoor grow ops in the area. However I do have an uncanny act for meeting the wrong people. lol. They explained to me that quality control and product strength was much easier in a grow op than on the side of a mountain. In fact I learned that really good stuff can't be grown outside due to mold problems. I also assumed that these people were just not your average pot farmers.  

I have actually had several employment offers of package delivery to Alberta of which I declined.

Don't know if it is still in operation but a few years back the RCMP had one helicopter assigned to your area for the sole intention of spotting unusual foliage. It operated full time during the daylight hours.

About 15 years ago, there were many outside growers there, not so much now. In fact I could almost bet someone that if you socialized in the bar in Nelson on a good night, you could not help but run into a grower. But like you say, not so much now.

[Baz]

I laughed at these photos. Many moons ago when I lived in Jasper, the lodges on the Banff/Jasper highway used to take turns hosting parties. Well one weekend in the middle of an Alberta beer strike, the Park Wardens/RCMP hosted a party in which two pallets containing just about any brand of Canadian beer sat. The pallets suspiciously contained only opened partially drank cases of beer.

One of my coworkers asked one of the nice policeman where they were able to find Canadian beer in the great beer drought. His reply was, "we just found it, Enjoy!" My coworker then asked if they had found any drugs also.  

New Brunswick has this subsidy program:


But look what happens when you don't pay the rent.

[Kootenanny]

Kootenanny:

I actually know several (ahem) horticulturalists in the area. They were running indoor grow ops in the area. However I do have an uncanny act for meeting the wrong people. lol. They explained to me that quality control and product strength was much easier in a grow op than on the side of a mountain. In fact I learned that really good stuff can't be grown outside due to mold problems. I also assumed that these people were just not your average pot farmers.  

I have actually had several employment offers of package delivery to Alberta of which I declined.

Don't know if it is still in operation but a few years back the RCMP had one helicopter assigned to your area for the sole intention of spotting unusual foliage. It operated full time during the daylight hours.

About 15 years ago, there were many outside growers there, not so much now. In fact I could almost bet someone that if you socialized in the bar in Nelson on a good night, you could not help but run into a grower. But like you say, not so much now.

Yeah, this sounds about right.  Backwoods hillside operations are going out of favour AFAIK.  As for the helicopters...I dunno, but...I live in a large open area, which makes it popular for flying lessons and practice--we get quite a few small planes practicing stalls and  other flying basics here.  So of course, there are some locals convinced those small planes are the RCMP looking for crops...

On the other hand, you know things are getting organized when some of the growers are using their own helicopters for transport.  2 or 3 years ago, there was a helicopter seized in a raid just up the valley.  It was painted flat black, and had no registration numbers.  The cops made it known that the owner was welcome to have it back...he just had to come collect it...  (Related to this was the story of a well-known local youth who'd been making a name for himself as an extreme skier...he got his pilot's license, but then he was arrested one night in Washington State during a dope delivery--I think he's still in jail down there.)

[Baz]

OK, so now you want a pipeline?

http://t.news.ca.msn.com/canada/bc-liberals-close-to-backing-oil-refinery

You will need a Northern Gateway pipeline to feed this refinery.

Tree Hugging Socialists are so confusing.

[Kootenanny]

OK, so now you want a pipeline?

http://t.news.ca.msn.com/canada/bc-liberals-close-to-backing-oil-refinery

You will need a Northern Gateway pipeline to feed this refinery.

Tree Hugging Socialists are so confusing.

Well, unless he can get it built in a couple of months, Black won't be dealing with Christy Clark and the BC Liberals any more, anyway.

[Baz]

The really funny thing about this whole pipeline thing is that the BC Government has "zero" influence in the decision to build it or not.

Quite some time ago the provinces signed over all decision making over to the feds, and in return they are faced with zero financial costs of environmental studies and things like that. Things such as transportation routes (a pipeline is considered one) are actually federal jurisdiction.



I am pretty confused about this refinery. An upgrader I could see, but I can't see the practicality of shipping gasoline, jet fuel, etc. to the far east via ship. The location of that refinery would be a poor one to ship finished product to places in North America also. I wonder just how much of a financial study has been done with Mr. Black's investor group.  

Suncor has killed an upgrader for their Fort Hills project on the expectations that there will be a very small future price spread on Bitumen vs Synthetic crude. This upgrader is even half built.  A small refinery would be in the Billion dollar range (Especially in Kitimat or Prince Rupert) and payback comes in the form of a few dollars a barrel over 40 years. This is the number one reason why no new refineries have been built in North America in the last 40 years.

[Kootenanny]

Quite some time ago the provinces signed over all decision making over to the feds, and in return they are faced with zero financial costs of environmental studies and things like that. .

And yeah, Harper's Conservatives have shown just how important environmental studies are to them...

[Baz]

Blame Harper...

Of course you can always listen to David Suzuki who would have all of us re-foresting the planet, restoring wetlands etc, because none of us had any jobs left.



 

[Kootenanny]

Blame Harper...

I do already.  And Peter Kent, too.


Personally, I'd rather have real cream in my coffee than "edible oil product," thanks.

[Baz]

I do already.  And Peter Kent, too.


Personally, I'd rather have real cream in my coffee than "edible oil product," thanks.

Hold on here.... The edible oil product comes from Canola. You will have to discuss that problem with agriculture Canada. (it is really edible oil)

My bitumen sir, does not end up in your coffee.

[Kootenanny]

My bitumen sir, does not end up in your coffee.

I sure hope not!

I don't want it running through my back yard, either.