Unbelievable thread on countersteering on Triumphrat.net

[cruisin]

Have any of you been over on Triumphrat.net lately and seen the thread about countersteering? It started on Dec. 21 and already has 17 pages.  The OP opens with this:

I've had people explain it to me. I've watched the youtube videos. I've tried to practice the techniques. But its just too confusing.
From now on I'm just steering.
None of this "push this way" and "lean that way". It doesn't work. Regular steering from now on!

Most of the responders (including a few MSF instructors) have tried to explain it to those who don't want to believe it works.  I think most of the people are fully aware of what it is and how to use it, but there are still a few and one in particular that just don't get it.  A couple of instructional videos have even been posted with clear demonstartions of countersteering at work and still one guy claims there is no way anyone has the strength to turn the handlebars while at speed and that the only way to turn a bike is by forcing it to lean with body movement.

Go take a look, it is simply unbelievable (and somewhat entertaining) that some refuse to learn.

[sleazy rider]

He's probably riding a shaft drive bike.  

[veefer800canuck]

 

It's the simplest thing evar. So easy to experiment with on a straight stretch of road with no traffic, going about 30 MPH.

Those people who don't believe in counter steering have been doing it all along, they just refuse to invest the brain cells into understanding why it works.

I remember the first time I had heard about counter steering. I tried it intentionally immediately afterwards, and yeah, you can't argue with the laws of physics.

[cruisin]

 

It's the simplest thing evar. So easy to experiment with on a straight stretch of road with no traffic, going about 30 MPH.

Those people who don't believe in counter steering have been doing it all along, they just refuse to invest the brain cells into understanding why it works.

I remember the first time I had heard about counter steering. I tried it intentionally immediately afterwards, and yeah, you can't argue with the laws of physics.

I, too, recall my first experience with it in 1968 on my Honda 90.  An older friend of mine with a few years of experience made it his mission to teach a few of us younger riders proper techniques.  Once we all tried it, there was no other sensible way to control a bike. Now, I go read things like the thread over on the Triumph site and simply cannot fathom someone is so ignorant and close-minded so as to not even want to attempt it even once.

[Mac]

I recall in my first few months of riding, not understanding countersteer. I had the hardest time cornering by body lean alone, it made for some very scary moments. I discovered countersteering by accident, experimented and was performing better in the week after, then in the previous months combined.

Hell, lean the wrong way and you can still countersteer the bike the way you want to go.

[cruisin]

I see the thread has been moved -- thanks; I wasn't quite sure where it should go.

I also see that the most vocal anti countersteering person on the other forum is now back-pedaling in a huge way.  

we need an icon for back-pedaling

[Orson]

A good counter steering thread is too good to hide down in the Triumph Section  

[Kneescrubber]

You're doing it whether you understand it or not.  

[TBone]

The OP of triumphrat thread started it as a joke, at this point it's up to 18 pages due to one very stubborn contrarian.  

Ironically enough with a screen name of "cantbestopped".  

[PatM]

WTF is that counter steering thing you guys talk about?  
Next you'll be telling us we can use the front brakes?  

[MidLifeMike]

You're doing it whether you understand it or not.  

^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS

But I'm sure in a week we can get this thread up to 18 pages and show those fellas at Triumphrat.

I mean WTF people. Go to a boating forum and they don't keep arguing about why you push the outboard tiller to the right, to go left.

[cruisin]

 

[Mac]

 Go to a boating forum and they don't keep arguing about why you push the outboard tiller to the right, to go left.

Thats because sailors don't argue with results.

[staedtler]

this should clarify any questions.... it explains the relation
between the front suspension and steering  






this next one, explains what happens to your head after you hit that rv on the incoming lane
cause you fail to steer properly  

[Hardware]

I didn't even bother to read the link as I don't just don't suffer fools gladly.

When I used to teach I started the counter steering talk with something along the lines of:

We're going to discuss counter steering.  Before we get into it, I want to point out that between all the instructors we have here, there's close to a hundred years of combined experience in riding bikes and teaching others how to ride.  You've paid us good money to teach you how to ride so we're not going to tell you to do something that won't work, or worse, that would harm you.  Counter steering exploits a thing called gyroscopic precession.  Without getting too much into the physics of it all, gyroscopic precession is a factor in any spinning wheel or disk, whether it's a motorcycle wheel, helicopter rotor, airplane propellor or some aircraft instruments.  Believe me, us motorcycle instructors did not get together last night over a few beers and come up with gyroscopic precession as a way to confuse everyone.

[cognosticator]

You're doing it whether you understand it or not.  

Eggs actly  when you go around a curve, you are countersteering wheter you know it or not

[rgbeard]

I hang out a bit in the Goldwing forums, and you should see how it spooks the sheep over there when someone mentions it.

Scary part is, these guys ride some of the largest/heaviest bikes around (other than an FJR, of course) and many have no idea of the physics of a turn.

Yet another point against the sanity of a large group ride.

[Tripps]

Have any of you been over on Triumphrat.net lately and seen the thread about countersteering? It started on Dec. 21 and already has 17 pages.  The OP opens with this:

I've had people explain it to me. I've watched the youtube videos. I've tried to practice the techniques. But its just too confusing.
From now on I'm just steering.
None of this "push this way" and "lean that way". It doesn't work. Regular steering from now on!

Most of the responders (including a few MSF instructors) have tried to explain it to those who don't want to believe it works.  I think most of the people are fully aware of what it is and how to use it, but there are still a few and one in particular that just don't get it.  A couple of instructional videos have even been posted with clear demonstartions of countersteering at work and still one guy claims there is no way anyone has the strength to turn the handlebars while at speed and that the only way to turn a bike is by forcing it to lean with body movement.

Go take a look, it is simply unbelievable (and somewhat entertaining) that some refuse to learn.

dude, it was humor, I saw that immediately, and the original poster said so.

[cruisin]

dude, it was humor, I saw that immediately, and the original poster said so.

OH, I don't doubt that at all, the part that is unbelievable is the ensuing conversation and the one guy who is dead serious about claiming,  "no one has the strength to rotate a spinning tire sir. not by rotating or turning the steering apparatus sir.."

[sprint_st]

I need to qualify what I'm about to say.  Totally understand and am a true believer in counter steering.
There are some situations where it doesn't work      WTF you say???  One is a very slow, very tight, climbing hairpin - talkin' 180 degrees with maybe ten feet of elevation change.  If you lean and counter steer, be prepared for the bike to fall over.  If you just steer it like a car and keep the power on, no problem.  Another is a very tight slow speed U turn.  Yes you can shift weight, counter steer and make most u turns.  You can also steer it around like a tri-cycle if want a very tight turn at very slow speeds.  I just discovered this a few weeks ago while practicing u turns.  These ARE anomalies and you really don't want to bring them up when trying to explain the counter steering.  

[Slartibartfast]

That is because the wheel is not turning fast enough to induce gyroscopic precession when you're at walking speed. This is stuff that every rider should know.

[melville]

If you think triumphrat has a buncha contrarians, you ain't met bicycle people.  In my past life as a bicycle racer I may have been the only guy who countersteered and knew that was the operative mechanism of turning. I had friends go to some of the best training camps and when they came back they'd show me the rad cornering technique they'd learnt. It usually involved "Put your head here, weight the outside pedal at the bottom of the stroke, lean the bike more than the body" and all sorts of elaborate dancing with NO MENTION OF COUNTERSTEERING. After an East Mercer (Seattle area then) ride, when my slow fat ass had smoked him in the twisties, one guy asked me how I'd done it--after all, he'd had the training at SuperCamp. I explained countersteering and how all that fancy dancing he'd learnt was just an elaborate way to get him to put 2 oz. pressure (bicycle here) on the inside bar. I demonstrated countersteering, he tried it, and it was like the stadium lights came on over his head. His particular camp was put on by a TDF stage winner and a couple Olympic medalists.......

So I useta go into corners at 30+ bumping elbows essentially naked but for a soft helmet fulla holes with a buncha guys who probably didn't understand how they made the bike turn. I don't do that no more.

[cruisin]

I need to qualify what I'm about to say.  Totally understand and am a true believer in counter steering.
There are some situations where it doesn't work      WTF you say???  One is a very slow, very tight, climbing hairpin - talkin' 180 degrees with maybe ten feet of elevation change.  If you lean and counter steer, be prepared for the bike to fall over.  If you just steer it like a car and keep the power on, no problem.  Another is a very tight slow speed U turn.  Yes you can shift weight, counter steer and make most u turns.  You can also steer it around like a tri-cycle if want a very tight turn at very slow speeds.  I just discovered this a few weeks ago while practicing u turns.  These ARE anomalies and you really don't want to bring them up when trying to explain the counter steering.  

You're exactly correct. If you've ever watched motocops in competition, they put a great deal of pressure on the outside foot peg in a slow turn and lock the bars all the way to the other side.  The pressure on the outside peg keeps the bike upright while they lean waaaaay over with the wheel turned as far as it will go in the direction of the turn.  But that is only true when speeds are below the point of dealing with gyroscopic precession, as mentioned by Slartibartfast.  That same technique is employed during some MSF ERC sessions when the instructor has the students doing lock-to-lock figure eights.

[scotteroni]

There are  people that always see themselves as the "teachers" in life and everyone else the "students". They figure they know it all and don't need to be enlightened by anyone as their self education is complete and unquestionable. These are the people that think counter steering is something somebody made up and has no value.

[Orson]

and it was like the stadium lights came on over his head.

  That's how it wuz for me.

I think I rode my first two years on a bike, trying to lean the bike.

Then I learned about countersteering from a magazine article.

[Mr Sunshine]

Only 17 pages in that time?  Damn we've had WAY longer threads on counter-steering here over the past years.

[Tripps]

I keep trying it, haven't had any luck.

[sprint_st]

That is because the wheel is not turning fast enough to induce gyroscopic precession when you're at walking speed. This is stuff that every rider should know.

Absolutely!!! You would think so, but the emphasis is "should".   Did you ever see the video at Deals Gap with the cruiser guy driving right off the road after passing an RV.  Sorry, but our sport does NOT have the sharpest tools in the shed.  Rational people would just get on the bike and go for a ride.  If you can't figure out that counter steering is totally valid from that, you have to be an idiot.

My point was that there will always be someone who will argue, and I mean argue, not discuss the exceptions rather than the predominant rule.  IMO, it serves NO, NONE, NADA, Zilch point to engage these guys.  

[black hills]

quit thinking and just ride

[Carbonero]

I can't believe this topic still comes up.  

[Hardware]

I need to qualify what I'm about to say.  Totally understand and am a true believer in counter steering.
There are some situations where it doesn't work      WTF you say???  One is a very slow, very tight, climbing hairpin - talkin' 180 degrees with maybe ten feet of elevation change.  If you lean and counter steer, be prepared for the bike to fall over.  If you just steer it like a car and keep the power on, no problem.  Another is a very tight slow speed U turn.  Yes you can shift weight, counter steer and make most u turns.  You can also steer it around like a tri-cycle if want a very tight turn at very slow speeds.  I just discovered this a few weeks ago while practicing u turns.  These ARE anomalies and you really don't want to bring them up when trying to explain the counter steering.  

 

Counter steering comes into play when the bike is moving fast enough that the wheels are gyroscopically stabilized, allowing gyroscopic precession to have an effect.  The general rule of thumb is this requires speeds of moderately quick walking speed or higher...

[cruisin]

I can't believe this topic still comes up.  

AH, but this may be the only way new riders who refuse to go to an MSF class or read instructional books will learn.  What's a better learning tool than a good Internet arguement -- I mean really.  

[black hills]

who cares how it works? Really? I understand it from a physics point of view, but many others (who ride far better than I) do not. I find it similar to my heart beating, I have no idea how it works but it does so why worry about it?  If you ride and make it around a corner at speed you know how to countersteer (it's the only way to make the bike turn). over analyzing it only confuses people. It is a skill learned when you are 4 or 5 (when you learn to ride a bicycle.

[birdrunner]

The OP of triumphrat thread started it as a joke, at this point it's up to 18 pages due to one very stubborn contrarian.  

Ironically enough with a screen name of "cantbestopped".  

Did RAJ or Bob Mielke move to the Triump forum?

[Carbonero]

AH, but this may be the only way new riders who refuse to go to an MSF class or read instructional books will learn.  What's a better learning tool than a good Internet arguement -- I mean really.  

Pain.

Seriously.

I just have no time or patience for anyone not willing to take training any more. I've done my time coaching and mentoring those who know far, far less than they think they do, and don't feel like they have anything to learn.

[Windblown]

One does not steer a motorcycle through a left turn by counter-steering to the right, nor vice versa.  

I find folks that just can't "get it" usually think you are suggesting that they need to steer left thru a turn to go right thru a turn. That doesn't make sense, nor is it completlely true so their confusion is justifiable.  

One needs to lean the motorcycle in order to turn at speed and not fall over. The most effective means to initiate lean in the correct direction is by counter-steering.

I tell'em this way: You have to initiate lean in order to maintain balance when turning at speed correctt?  If you want to turn right you have to lean the bike to the right, correct? If you do nothing but push the bars left while at speed which way will the bike lean? To the right? Yup.  - Ok then, which direction does the bike need to be leaning to make a right turn? Right, yup. Well there you go. Initiate your lean with counter-steering then do what comes natural.  

[Ramseybella]

I found that this worked better with My Old ZRX 1200 than my taller  Tiger 1050.
But yes my friend who used to race told me about it and and I thought your Frigen nuts, but When I tried it I was able to ride a turn faster and tighter.

Just imagine I rode this thing 6'3" 300+ lbs that is why i sold it for a taller bike.

[Carbonero]

 

There's NO "I tried this after a friend told me about it."

This is the ONLY freaking way to turn a motorcycle at speed. You've ALWAYS done it whether consciously or not.

Let it go. Stop overthinking it.  

[OmegaSix]

You're doing it whether you understand it or not.  

Concur.

This conversation AND the one over at the Triumph site are all more than just a little bit silly.

Motorcycles turn through the countersteering process - - - - only.

Whether the human squatting in the saddle is doing it on purpose or not.

[Windblown]

 

There's NO "I tried this after a friend told me about it."

This is the ONLY freaking way to turn a motorcycle at speed. You've ALWAYS done it whether consciously or not.

Let it go. Stop overthinking it.  

True to a large extent though one can steer a motorcycle by leaning with no input to the bars. Most folks have done it plenty of times when they take their hands off the bars and use weight shifting to pilot the bike. It's not effective for anything close to a quick direction change but it does work to a limited degree and it's the weight shift, not counter-steering that induces the turn in those instances. Maybe that's why those who don't understand counter-steering can't turn their bikes worth a hill of beans.

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

[black hills]

True to a large extent though one can steer a motorcycle by leaning with no input to the bars. Most folks have done it plenty of times when they take their hands off the bars and use weight shifting to pilot the bike. It's not effective for anything close to a quick direction change but it does work to a limited degree and it's the weight shift, not counter-steering that induces the turn in those instances. Maybe that's why those who don't understand counter-steering can't turn their bikes worth a hill of beans.

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

true, but..... set you throttle lock and navigate a set of twistied with your hands off the bars. look at the bars, they countersteer themselves  really, if you look as you lean to initiate the turn you can see the bars move slightly left at the initiation of a right turn. the physics of a turning bike are the same no matter where the force to initiate the turn is applied.

[Carbonero]

True to a large extent though one can steer a motorcycle by leaning with no input to the bars. Most folks have done it plenty of times when they take their hands off the bars and use weight shifting to pilot the bike. It's not effective for anything close to a quick direction change but it does work to a limited degree and it's the weight shift, not counter-steering that induces the turn in those instances. Maybe that's why those who don't understand counter-steering can't turn their bikes worth a hill of beans.

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

That's like saying you can boil a gallon of water on a sunny day with a magnifying glass.

There's a right way to do things and there are other ways.

Weight transfer can minimize lean angles, and can strong-arm the geometry into doing *some* of what you want, and yes, can force a bike into a lean on a rounded tire... but the right way to steer a bike at speed is to initiate the lean via counter steering. When you counter steer you're simply causing the bike to "fall into" the turn by exposing the rounded, inside (relative to the expected turn) side of the tire, thus causing the bike to "fall in", and create the lean. You can create the lean, as you say, by weighting... but you're looking at single percentage points of efficiency compared to just doing it the right way, and I really think we shouldn't be discussing such inefficient "alternative" methods; if it worked all that well, bikes wouldn't have handle bars and this wouldn't even be a discussion.

The real problem is the phrase "counter steering". Just say "initiate the lean" and the problem goes away. Using "steering" when you don't actually steer a bike (at speed) is the problem.

[lightcycle]

I used to teach a MSF course and the term "counter-steering" caused the most confusion of all the concepts. The confusion was slightly lessened when we used the phrase "push-steering" instead. Push in the direction you want to go in.

[Ramseybella]

New guy again to make you stutter WTF?


Why I am thinking Flat tracking to get a good visual of this madness, sort of like an Oil thread isn't it?

[lightcycle]

That's a drift.

Or when I do it, it's called a pre-highside...  

[Ramseybella]

 

So I will move on and go riding?

[tomek]

wut about countersteering and a car tire on Goldwing ?


 

[veefer800canuck]

 

There's NO "I tried this after a friend told me about it."

I think most people mean that they go out on the road, and 'purposefully' countersteer the bike, after hearing about it, then realize it works. Whether or not they connect it with their riding prior to "discovering" countersteering is another thing.

But for the uninitiated, it's quite apparent when heading down a dead straight, level road about 30 mph and experiment with it. There is no mistaking when you "push right" that the ditch gets closer, rapidly. And then "pushing left" makes the ditch go away again. That's turning. Can't deny it. The road sure isn't moving!!

[2RR2NV]

what's really amazing is watching people actually try to steer normal at speed through some curves... watch the hilarity ensue.

[rgbeard]

wut about countersteering and a car tire on Goldwing ?


 

Actually that's a good one.  The car tire causes an interesting complaint amongst those that have the nerve to complain about it. (*)

They say that the car tire "requires" counter-steering.  What is scary is that those who complain about this say it as if they had some other solution (weight-shift?) before.  Kinda unnerving from the crew driving some of the heaviest metal out there on two wheels.

(*). Most don't complain.  Either the car tire f*cking rocks on a Goldwing That Well, or they're afraid to complain about their peer-pressured decision.

[Carbonero]

This thread made it happen. The sweet baby Jesus crying. Right now.

[JReazor]

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

That's a whole different situation. When you're riding a wheelie you have one tire on the ground, one contact patch, no relationship between the front and rear. It's effectively a completely different vehicle.

Leaning a bike (with both wheels on the ground) with no input on the bars still uses counter steering, you're just doing it the hard way.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

[Slartibartfast]

Keith Code's video shows that happening - they mount a second set if bars that are fixed to the frame and film the action as the rider tries to body steer it.

[Carbonero]

Keith Code's video shows that happening - they mount a second set if bars that are fixed to the frame and film the action as the rider tries to body steer it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8

Keith Code's video is... Not entirely forthcoming. That rider didn't actually move his weight all that far; he's remaining very central to the bike's mass. If you hang your weight way out, you can, in fact "steer" a bike with weight. But you're NOT circumventing counter steering... you're simply initiating it in different - and VERY inefficient - manner.

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread?  

[black hills]

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread?  

you like banging your head against the wall

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

[JReazor]

you like banging your head against the wall

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

You didn't ask him which letter represents time in M P G? I'd like to know.

[black hills]

You didn't ask him which letter represents time in M P G? I'd like to know.

never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to thier level and beat you with experience.... I smiled said "I guess I never thought about that?" then  finished my beer (a vey nice IPA from  http://www.crowpeakbrewing.com/ ) and went home

[Carbonero]

you like banging your head against the wall

That seems to be very true, huh?  

[black hills]

That seems to be very true, huh?  

 

[Slartibartfast]

Keith Code's video is... Not entirely forthcoming. That rider didn't actually move his weight all that far; he's remaining very central to the bike's mass. If you hang your weight way out, you can, in fact "steer" a bike with weight. But you're NOT circumventing counter steering... you're simply initiating it in different - and VERY inefficient - manner.

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread? 

Because you're a closet masochist?

I agree that the video is not comprehensive, the point I was making is that it highlights the fact that by leaning the bike you are initiating a counter steer. It all comes back to gyroscopic precession - it works both ways. If you lean the bike one way the gyro effect forces the wheel the other way. I have used the vid a couple of times to help illustrate it to new riders as it does a much better job of explaining it than I do, mainly because I have difficulty understanding how anyone can not get it and I end up getting frustrated.

It seems to me that if this is giving someone trouble they have no business on a motorcycle in the first place and perhaps they should explore crocheting as a past time instead.

[sprint_st]

Keith Code's video is... Not entirely forthcoming. That rider didn't actually move his weight all that far; he's remaining very central to the bike's mass. If you hang your weight way out, you can, in fact "steer" a bike with weight. But you're NOT circumventing counter steering... you're simply initiating it in different - and VERY inefficient - manner.

I'm glad someone else can see through Keith Code's version of reality.

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread?  
It is kind of an addiction.   When you consider that we have people who believe "loud pipes save lives", "you should never use your front brakes" and the current topic, I'd bet you could get a thread going on driving off the edge of the planet

[Carbonero]

LOL Excellent point. DISCWORLD IS REAL!

[Scratch33]

Arse.

[Ramseybella]

                              Do these things even turn?

[Carbonero]

                              Do these things even turn?

Yes. He's a knucklehead. I never had problems with mine.

[Kneescrubber]

                              Do these things even turn?

He was busy posing for his picture.  

[black hills]

he should take lessons from this guy:

[falconati]

you like banging your head against the wall

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

Oh my god!    Somebody give that man a promotion!

[TBone]

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

If I were drunk enough that would make total sense.  

[veefer800canuck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8

Keith Code's video is... Not entirely forthcoming. That rider didn't actually move his weight all that far; he's remaining very central to the bike's mass. If you hang your weight way out, you can, in fact "steer" a bike with weight. But you're NOT circumventing counter steering... you're simply initiating it in different - and VERY inefficient - manner.

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread?  

I have played around on a bike in the past, riding solo, sitting back on the passenger seat, cruise control engaged, no hands on the bars. You can make a SLIGHT directional change by simply leaning to one side, or even sticking one arm straight out to the side. But it is VERY SLIGHT.

Certainly nowhere near what I would call "cornering", nor does it give you any real feeling of controllability.

[ajf]

    Hi folks.  It's the physicist some of you like to hate.

    I don't read many threads or post much here anymore - most of the people who were really helpful in fixing my mistakes have left too.  But there are several sincere fellows here involved in motorcycle training who have only part of the picture of how countersteering works, and I would like to try to help them in their duties by suggesting a more complete picture.

    Two basic mechanisms have been proposed in this thread.  I'll try to explain briefly how each works so we're on the same page.  Then I'll try to explain how both are correct, and are more important in different speed ranges.  Finally I will add something I thought of while reading this thread which cleared up a minor mystery for me and might do the same for others.

    One mechanism doesn't have a simple name, but in essence holds that if you steer the front wheel to one side the bike falls over to the other side.  You can look at this in different ways.  Because the front of the bike starts to follow a curve to one side while the bike is vertical, centrifugal force causes it to roll (lean) to the other side.  Or, the centre of mass is no longer centred over the wheels so the bike falls over.  I think the first one makes more sense, but the the latter seems to be favored by proponents of this mechanism.  This pretty obviously works at low to moderate speeds (say, 10 - 60 mph) when you can easily turn the bars a substantial distance.  There are some calculations you can easily find on Wikipedia which show that the rolling force this mechanism generates is sufficient to account for leaning into a curve in this speed range.

    The other mechanism is the gyroscopic effect.  If you turn the wheel in one direction, a gyroscopic reaction occurs that tries to roll the bike in the other direction.  The problem with this mechanism is that at low to moderate speeds there isn't enough force available to roll the bike as quickly as we know it can be rolled, as shown by the Wikipedia calculations mentioned above.  However, at high speeds it is very difficult to turn the front wheel, so it is hard to see how the first mechanism does much.  At speeds above 100 mph I think almost all of the roll must arise from the gyroscopic effect.  And, conveniently, gyroscopic forces rise rapidly as the wheel rotation speed increases.  Between 60 and 100 mph both effects contribute appreciably to the roll.

    I haven't repeated those calculations because they agree with what I already thought.  So there is a chance that whoever wrote it got the numbers wrong.  (Certainly he/she got some other stuff wrong, such as the importance of the camber effect.)    

    Finally, I was wondering why the steering toughens up progressively as speeds increase above 50 mph (plus or minus a bit, depending on the bike).  I had assumed that this was the result of the first mechanism fading and the gyroscopic effect becoming more important, and that's just how much force you need on the bars to make it work.  But thinking more carefully, I realized that the act of rolling causes its own, separate gyroscopic effect on the front wheel.  That effect tries to turn the bars in the same direction as the roll, which opposes your countersteering pressure.  For the same roll rate, the faster you go the greater this gyroscopic effect on steering becomes, and I think this is mainly what makes the bars feel heavier as your speed increases.

[Ramseybella]

[sprint_st]

There is a guy from N.Ga that has a forum name that covers this topic completely: eFnJustRide!!!  If someone doesn't believe in counter steering, so fricken what    Are you taking Physics 101 or running the Cherohala Skyway?  Personally, I think too many of that crowd who don't believe in counter steering had way too many synapses destroyed by ethanol to understand their rear weal goes forward  

[Thunderbox]

WTF is that counter steering thing you guys talk about?  
Next you'll be telling us we can use the front brakes?  

Not unless you want to fly over the handle bars!!!!!

[miles]

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

I used a similar argument with an officer who pulled me over for speeding.  I told him that I had to ride fast, because  I was almost out of gas and only had just enough fuel to make it to the gas station if I really hurried.

He thought about it for a minute, then let me go with a verbal warning.  Evidently he had a rule that he lets go anybody who can come up with an excuse he's never heard before.

[PatM]

Not unless you want to fly over the handle bars!!!!!

Ah!!! I thought so.  

[Giaka]

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

Delaware?