Unbelievable thread on countersteering on Triumphrat.net

[Slartibartfast]

That is because the wheel is not turning fast enough to induce gyroscopic precession when you're at walking speed. This is stuff that every rider should know.

[melville]

If you think triumphrat has a buncha contrarians, you ain't met bicycle people.  In my past life as a bicycle racer I may have been the only guy who countersteered and knew that was the operative mechanism of turning. I had friends go to some of the best training camps and when they came back they'd show me the rad cornering technique they'd learnt. It usually involved "Put your head here, weight the outside pedal at the bottom of the stroke, lean the bike more than the body" and all sorts of elaborate dancing with NO MENTION OF COUNTERSTEERING. After an East Mercer (Seattle area then) ride, when my slow fat ass had smoked him in the twisties, one guy asked me how I'd done it--after all, he'd had the training at SuperCamp. I explained countersteering and how all that fancy dancing he'd learnt was just an elaborate way to get him to put 2 oz. pressure (bicycle here) on the inside bar. I demonstrated countersteering, he tried it, and it was like the stadium lights came on over his head. His particular camp was put on by a TDF stage winner and a couple Olympic medalists.......

So I useta go into corners at 30+ bumping elbows essentially naked but for a soft helmet fulla holes with a buncha guys who probably didn't understand how they made the bike turn. I don't do that no more.

[cruisin]

I need to qualify what I'm about to say.  Totally understand and am a true believer in counter steering.
There are some situations where it doesn't work      WTF you say???  One is a very slow, very tight, climbing hairpin - talkin' 180 degrees with maybe ten feet of elevation change.  If you lean and counter steer, be prepared for the bike to fall over.  If you just steer it like a car and keep the power on, no problem.  Another is a very tight slow speed U turn.  Yes you can shift weight, counter steer and make most u turns.  You can also steer it around like a tri-cycle if want a very tight turn at very slow speeds.  I just discovered this a few weeks ago while practicing u turns.  These ARE anomalies and you really don't want to bring them up when trying to explain the counter steering.  

You're exactly correct. If you've ever watched motocops in competition, they put a great deal of pressure on the outside foot peg in a slow turn and lock the bars all the way to the other side.  The pressure on the outside peg keeps the bike upright while they lean waaaaay over with the wheel turned as far as it will go in the direction of the turn.  But that is only true when speeds are below the point of dealing with gyroscopic precession, as mentioned by Slartibartfast.  That same technique is employed during some MSF ERC sessions when the instructor has the students doing lock-to-lock figure eights.

[scotteroni]

There are  people that always see themselves as the "teachers" in life and everyone else the "students". They figure they know it all and don't need to be enlightened by anyone as their self education is complete and unquestionable. These are the people that think counter steering is something somebody made up and has no value.

[Orson]

and it was like the stadium lights came on over his head.

  That's how it wuz for me.

I think I rode my first two years on a bike, trying to lean the bike.

Then I learned about countersteering from a magazine article.

[Mr Sunshine]

Only 17 pages in that time?  Damn we've had WAY longer threads on counter-steering here over the past years.

[Tripps]

I keep trying it, haven't had any luck.

[sprint_st]

That is because the wheel is not turning fast enough to induce gyroscopic precession when you're at walking speed. This is stuff that every rider should know.

Absolutely!!! You would think so, but the emphasis is "should".   Did you ever see the video at Deals Gap with the cruiser guy driving right off the road after passing an RV.  Sorry, but our sport does NOT have the sharpest tools in the shed.  Rational people would just get on the bike and go for a ride.  If you can't figure out that counter steering is totally valid from that, you have to be an idiot.

My point was that there will always be someone who will argue, and I mean argue, not discuss the exceptions rather than the predominant rule.  IMO, it serves NO, NONE, NADA, Zilch point to engage these guys.  

[black hills]

quit thinking and just ride

[Carbonero]

I can't believe this topic still comes up.  

[Hardware]

I need to qualify what I'm about to say.  Totally understand and am a true believer in counter steering.
There are some situations where it doesn't work      WTF you say???  One is a very slow, very tight, climbing hairpin - talkin' 180 degrees with maybe ten feet of elevation change.  If you lean and counter steer, be prepared for the bike to fall over.  If you just steer it like a car and keep the power on, no problem.  Another is a very tight slow speed U turn.  Yes you can shift weight, counter steer and make most u turns.  You can also steer it around like a tri-cycle if want a very tight turn at very slow speeds.  I just discovered this a few weeks ago while practicing u turns.  These ARE anomalies and you really don't want to bring them up when trying to explain the counter steering.  

 

Counter steering comes into play when the bike is moving fast enough that the wheels are gyroscopically stabilized, allowing gyroscopic precession to have an effect.  The general rule of thumb is this requires speeds of moderately quick walking speed or higher...

[cruisin]

I can't believe this topic still comes up.  

AH, but this may be the only way new riders who refuse to go to an MSF class or read instructional books will learn.  What's a better learning tool than a good Internet arguement -- I mean really.  

[black hills]

who cares how it works? Really? I understand it from a physics point of view, but many others (who ride far better than I) do not. I find it similar to my heart beating, I have no idea how it works but it does so why worry about it?  If you ride and make it around a corner at speed you know how to countersteer (it's the only way to make the bike turn). over analyzing it only confuses people. It is a skill learned when you are 4 or 5 (when you learn to ride a bicycle.

[birdrunner]

The OP of triumphrat thread started it as a joke, at this point it's up to 18 pages due to one very stubborn contrarian.  

Ironically enough with a screen name of "cantbestopped".  

Did RAJ or Bob Mielke move to the Triump forum?

[Carbonero]

AH, but this may be the only way new riders who refuse to go to an MSF class or read instructional books will learn.  What's a better learning tool than a good Internet arguement -- I mean really.  

Pain.

Seriously.

I just have no time or patience for anyone not willing to take training any more. I've done my time coaching and mentoring those who know far, far less than they think they do, and don't feel like they have anything to learn.

[Windblown]

One does not steer a motorcycle through a left turn by counter-steering to the right, nor vice versa.  

I find folks that just can't "get it" usually think you are suggesting that they need to steer left thru a turn to go right thru a turn. That doesn't make sense, nor is it completlely true so their confusion is justifiable.  

One needs to lean the motorcycle in order to turn at speed and not fall over. The most effective means to initiate lean in the correct direction is by counter-steering.

I tell'em this way: You have to initiate lean in order to maintain balance when turning at speed correctt?  If you want to turn right you have to lean the bike to the right, correct? If you do nothing but push the bars left while at speed which way will the bike lean? To the right? Yup.  - Ok then, which direction does the bike need to be leaning to make a right turn? Right, yup. Well there you go. Initiate your lean with counter-steering then do what comes natural.  

[Ramseybella]

I found that this worked better with My Old ZRX 1200 than my taller  Tiger 1050.
But yes my friend who used to race told me about it and and I thought your Frigen nuts, but When I tried it I was able to ride a turn faster and tighter.

Just imagine I rode this thing 6'3" 300+ lbs that is why i sold it for a taller bike.

[Carbonero]

 

There's NO "I tried this after a friend told me about it."

This is the ONLY freaking way to turn a motorcycle at speed. You've ALWAYS done it whether consciously or not.

Let it go. Stop overthinking it.  

[OmegaSix]

You're doing it whether you understand it or not.  

Concur.

This conversation AND the one over at the Triumph site are all more than just a little bit silly.

Motorcycles turn through the countersteering process - - - - only.

Whether the human squatting in the saddle is doing it on purpose or not.

[Windblown]

 

There's NO "I tried this after a friend told me about it."

This is the ONLY freaking way to turn a motorcycle at speed. You've ALWAYS done it whether consciously or not.

Let it go. Stop overthinking it.  

True to a large extent though one can steer a motorcycle by leaning with no input to the bars. Most folks have done it plenty of times when they take their hands off the bars and use weight shifting to pilot the bike. It's not effective for anything close to a quick direction change but it does work to a limited degree and it's the weight shift, not counter-steering that induces the turn in those instances. Maybe that's why those who don't understand counter-steering can't turn their bikes worth a hill of beans.

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).