Unbelievable thread on countersteering on Triumphrat.net

[black hills]

True to a large extent though one can steer a motorcycle by leaning with no input to the bars. Most folks have done it plenty of times when they take their hands off the bars and use weight shifting to pilot the bike. It's not effective for anything close to a quick direction change but it does work to a limited degree and it's the weight shift, not counter-steering that induces the turn in those instances. Maybe that's why those who don't understand counter-steering can't turn their bikes worth a hill of beans.

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

true, but..... set you throttle lock and navigate a set of twistied with your hands off the bars. look at the bars, they countersteer themselves  really, if you look as you lean to initiate the turn you can see the bars move slightly left at the initiation of a right turn. the physics of a turning bike are the same no matter where the force to initiate the turn is applied.

[Carbonero]

True to a large extent though one can steer a motorcycle by leaning with no input to the bars. Most folks have done it plenty of times when they take their hands off the bars and use weight shifting to pilot the bike. It's not effective for anything close to a quick direction change but it does work to a limited degree and it's the weight shift, not counter-steering that induces the turn in those instances. Maybe that's why those who don't understand counter-steering can't turn their bikes worth a hill of beans.

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

That's like saying you can boil a gallon of water on a sunny day with a magnifying glass.

There's a right way to do things and there are other ways.

Weight transfer can minimize lean angles, and can strong-arm the geometry into doing *some* of what you want, and yes, can force a bike into a lean on a rounded tire... but the right way to steer a bike at speed is to initiate the lean via counter steering. When you counter steer you're simply causing the bike to "fall into" the turn by exposing the rounded, inside (relative to the expected turn) side of the tire, thus causing the bike to "fall in", and create the lean. You can create the lean, as you say, by weighting... but you're looking at single percentage points of efficiency compared to just doing it the right way, and I really think we shouldn't be discussing such inefficient "alternative" methods; if it worked all that well, bikes wouldn't have handle bars and this wouldn't even be a discussion.

The real problem is the phrase "counter steering". Just say "initiate the lean" and the problem goes away. Using "steering" when you don't actually steer a bike (at speed) is the problem.

[lightcycle]

I used to teach a MSF course and the term "counter-steering" caused the most confusion of all the concepts. The confusion was slightly lessened when we used the phrase "push-steering" instead. Push in the direction you want to go in.

[Ramseybella]

New guy again to make you stutter WTF?


Why I am thinking Flat tracking to get a good visual of this madness, sort of like an Oil thread isn't it?

[lightcycle]

That's a drift.

Or when I do it, it's called a pre-highside...  

[Ramseybella]

 

So I will move on and go riding?

[tomek]

wut about countersteering and a car tire on Goldwing ?


 

[veefer800canuck]

 

There's NO "I tried this after a friend told me about it."

I think most people mean that they go out on the road, and 'purposefully' countersteer the bike, after hearing about it, then realize it works. Whether or not they connect it with their riding prior to "discovering" countersteering is another thing.

But for the uninitiated, it's quite apparent when heading down a dead straight, level road about 30 mph and experiment with it. There is no mistaking when you "push right" that the ditch gets closer, rapidly. And then "pushing left" makes the ditch go away again. That's turning. Can't deny it. The road sure isn't moving!!

[2RR2NV]

what's really amazing is watching people actually try to steer normal at speed through some curves... watch the hilarity ensue.

[rgbeard]

wut about countersteering and a car tire on Goldwing ?


 

Actually that's a good one.  The car tire causes an interesting complaint amongst those that have the nerve to complain about it. (*)

They say that the car tire "requires" counter-steering.  What is scary is that those who complain about this say it as if they had some other solution (weight-shift?) before.  Kinda unnerving from the crew driving some of the heaviest metal out there on two wheels.

(*). Most don't complain.  Either the car tire f*cking rocks on a Goldwing That Well, or they're afraid to complain about their peer-pressured decision.

[Carbonero]

This thread made it happen. The sweet baby Jesus crying. Right now.

[JReazor]

If weight shifting didn't work at all without a counter-steering force folks wouldn't be able to steer their bikes when riding a long wheelie (for example).

That's a whole different situation. When you're riding a wheelie you have one tire on the ground, one contact patch, no relationship between the front and rear. It's effectively a completely different vehicle.

Leaning a bike (with both wheels on the ground) with no input on the bars still uses counter steering, you're just doing it the hard way.

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

[Slartibartfast]

Keith Code's video shows that happening - they mount a second set if bars that are fixed to the frame and film the action as the rider tries to body steer it.

[Carbonero]

Keith Code's video shows that happening - they mount a second set if bars that are fixed to the frame and film the action as the rider tries to body steer it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8

Keith Code's video is... Not entirely forthcoming. That rider didn't actually move his weight all that far; he's remaining very central to the bike's mass. If you hang your weight way out, you can, in fact "steer" a bike with weight. But you're NOT circumventing counter steering... you're simply initiating it in different - and VERY inefficient - manner.

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread?  

[black hills]

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread?  

you like banging your head against the wall

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

[JReazor]

you like banging your head against the wall

on a side note I had a brief discussion yesterday with a guy about truck mileage. He stated:

if I drive across the state at 80mph I get 14mpg, if you drive at 60mph and get 18mpg I still use less gas because your trucks engine was running for an extra hour.......I just agreed, somethings you just can't argue with

You didn't ask him which letter represents time in M P G? I'd like to know.

[black hills]

You didn't ask him which letter represents time in M P G? I'd like to know.

never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to thier level and beat you with experience.... I smiled said "I guess I never thought about that?" then  finished my beer (a vey nice IPA from  http://www.crowpeakbrewing.com/ ) and went home

[Carbonero]

you like banging your head against the wall

That seems to be very true, huh?  

[black hills]

That seems to be very true, huh?  

 

[Slartibartfast]

Keith Code's video is... Not entirely forthcoming. That rider didn't actually move his weight all that far; he's remaining very central to the bike's mass. If you hang your weight way out, you can, in fact "steer" a bike with weight. But you're NOT circumventing counter steering... you're simply initiating it in different - and VERY inefficient - manner.

My god... Why do I keep posting in this asinine thread? 

Because you're a closet masochist?

I agree that the video is not comprehensive, the point I was making is that it highlights the fact that by leaning the bike you are initiating a counter steer. It all comes back to gyroscopic precession - it works both ways. If you lean the bike one way the gyro effect forces the wheel the other way. I have used the vid a couple of times to help illustrate it to new riders as it does a much better job of explaining it than I do, mainly because I have difficulty understanding how anyone can not get it and I end up getting frustrated.

It seems to me that if this is giving someone trouble they have no business on a motorcycle in the first place and perhaps they should explore crocheting as a past time instead.