Post ESTN accident report.

[SWriverstone]

Our fantastic weekend at ESTN ended abruptly Sunday afternoon. We were a group of four bikes: I was lead (on my VFR), then Holly (Ducati 748), followed by Eric (EJWorthen) and Pam 2-up on their FJR, and Frank (FJRski) rode sweep.

We'd just left the Blue Ridge Parkway near Lynchburg, VA and headed east on Rt.130 in Amherst County. After countless miles of twisties and sweepers, the road became arrow-straight and flat for a half-mile.

I noticed a truck in our lane a hundred yards ahead. It appeared to be traveling the same speed we were, about 55-60mph. All of a sudden I closed on the truck at a terrifying rate of speed. At some point my brain registered that the truck had stopped---but I never saw brake lights (and neither did anyone else).

When I found myself about to rear-end the truck at 50mph, I grabbed a fistful of front brakes (didn't even think of the rear) and angled right toward the grass shoulder.

Meanwhile, Holly (who was a few bike lengths behind me) also grabbed a fisful of brakes and went into a near-vertical stoppie. I didn't see this, but Eric, Pam and Frank did. They said Holly went vertical, then modulated the brake to bring the rear down, but then squeezed again---sending the rear back up again.

At about this time, she struck my left rear Givi hardbag---a glancing blow. It was a hard enough impact to knock the VFR from under me and onto its side on the grass shoulder. I looked to the left in time to see Holly and her bike fly past me. The bike slammed down on its side and slid down the pavement, coming to a stop several feet short of the stopped truck. Holly tumbled and pulled into a fetal position and came to a stop on her back, groaning.

Eric and Frank both had time and space to stop safely and pull onto the right shoulder. I ran to Holly to check on her. She seemed okay and was angry at not stopping safely. We asked her if everything felt okay (no severe pain, no difficulty moving anything, etc.) and when she said yes, she got up and moved to the side of the road, where she kneeled in the grass.

Frank helped me pick up her bike and roll it to the side of the road. Bits of mirror, turn signals, brake lever, were scattered everywhere.
Someone called the police while we picked up the pieces.

ANALYSIS

1. We were traveling east at 3:40pm on a clear day with the sun on our backs---meaning bright sunlight on the truck ahead of us.

2. Our speed was initially in the 60-65mph range, and as soon as we saw the vehicles ahead we slowed to 55-60mph.

3. I don't know exactly what the distance between bikes was, but we were spread out, at least 3-4 car lengths between us (e.g. not bunched up tightly). Had we applied the 3-second rule, we might have failed---I don't think we were that far apart.

4. There were actually two vehicles ahead of us, both in our lane. The first vehicle was a compact car that was completely obscured from view by a larger pickup truck behind it. Apparently the compact car braked suddenly to make a left turn. The truck was probably surprised and braked hard too.

5. Nobody saw brake lights on the truck, period. We're not 100% certain whether this was because of direct sunlight on the back of the truck...or because the truck had no brake lights. What is certain is that we had zero warning of the stopped vehicles.

6. I am now a worshipper of ABS brakes. If anyone tells me they have a problem with them, I'll openly declare them an idiot. I know from experience now that in a panic situation, there is no such thing as "carefully modulating the brakes." If you think you're going to rear-end someone at 40+ mph and you have less than a second to stop, you WILL grab that front brake for all you're worth. The result? Of 4 bikes, 3 had ABS brakes and one didn't. Guess which bike ended up doing a stoppie and falling?

7. ATGATT. Holly's gear did its job. She was wearing a Shoei RF-1000 helmet, Held Profi gloves, a Tourmaster Transition jacket, and Cortech overpants. Her Transition jacket was abraded in a few spots, but not worn through anywhere. The inseam on her overpants blew out in one spot, but otherwise the pants are fine. And the Shoei got a heck of a scrape, but Holly's head is fine. (She remembers taking a hard knock to the head on the pavement.) It's worth noting that the only place Holly had a little spot of road rash was on her lower back---where the jacket obviously rode up. A good argument for jackets that attach to pants.

8. The two other vehicles that stopped suddenly ahead of us (including the truck with possibly no brake lights) fled the scene of the accident. They appeared to stop briefly to be sure Holly wasn't severely injured (though I don't know how they thought they could tell), and then high-tailed it out of there. We were too shocked by the whole thing and concerned for Holly to get a license tag number.

9. Holly was not cited for anything by the Amherst County police officer who arrived on the scene. He asked about our speed, and we told him "no more than 55," which is likely the truth. The officer was obviously impressed by our full gear and said as much. (We probably didn't strike him as a bunch of squids.)

---

FOLLOWUP

Holly went to the ER at Lynchburg General Hospital, where she got a full set of X-rays and CAT scans. She has a stable hairline fracture in her C6 vertabrae, but is fine other than being bruised and sore and stiff.

The bike was towed to a local garage to the tune of $200. (Insurance should cover it---we hope.) After Holly was released from the emergency room at around 9pm Sunday, we called a taxi to drive her to a hotel. We followed the taxi over, got Holly checked in, then went out for fast food and had a nice feast in Holly's room.

Eric, Pam, Frank and I then hit the road at about 11pm and rode the 180 miles back to my house in Harpers Ferry, where we all crashed. The next morning, Eric, Pam and Frank hit the road for home (PA), and I drove back to Lynchburg to pick up Holly.

We rented a U-Haul flatbed trailer with a ramp, retrieved the bike, and drove it DucPond Motorsports in Winchester, VA. Donnie Unger, owner of DucPond and a longtime veteran superbike racer, generously met us at the shop even though the shop is closed on Mondays. He looked the bike over and said he'd repaired other 748's with similar damage. He said there are ways he can get creative and get the bike looking good again without paying top-dollar for replacement Ducati parts. (e.g. Ebay, etc.)

We were happy leaving the bike with Donnie---he's one of the best Ducati mechanics (and riders) in North America and knows the 748 inside-out, so the bike is in very capable hands! (BTW, if you haven't seen DucPond since they became a full-blown Ducati dealer, you need to---they are probably the premiere Ducati dealership in the Mid-Atlantic region now. We got the private tour of the showroom from Donnie.)

In closing, Holly was lucky it wasn't worse. She's upset with herself for not allowing greater following distance, and while that played a role, it wasn't the sole cause of the accident---which was also due to a suddenly stopped vehicle with no (or non-visible) brake lights.

She might keep the 748...or we might sell it. Holly is realizing that she doesn't really need a superbike these days...and is thinking maybe something a little more moderate might suit her for the kind of riding we do now.

Scott

PS - It's ironic---and a valuable lesson for us all---that this accident occurred on a straight, flat stretch of road after safely riding hundreds of miles of some of the twistiest, most technical roads in the U.S.!

PPS - The rest of the ESTN weekend---before the accident---was fantastic! I'll post pics later.

PPPS - Holly and I owe a huge THANK YOU to Eric (EJWorthen), Pam, and Frank (FJRski) for being such great friends and riding partners through the accident and the endless hours of waiting around at the ER afterward. You guys are all great!

---
Here's a photo (below) of the scene a few minutes after the accident. We'd picked up Holly's bike (the yellow Ducati); that's Holly sitting on the shoulder, with Pam standing beside her--- :eek:and that's my VFR (still hadn't picked it up yet)...



This photo (below) tells it all: vehicle skid marks, with a yellow stripe from Holly's fairing right next to them...



And here's Holly's Shoei RF-1000 helmet, below...



(I can post close-ups of the abraded parts of her Transition jacket if anyone's interested.)

[DredheadV2.0]

Holy crap

I'm happy everyone's alive 'n' kickin.

[Mr Sunshine]

Damn....that sucks!  Glad everyone is up and about.

You accident sounds exactly like one I *almost* got ito last year on the way to the WCRM 3.5.

[Scratch33]

CRAP!!!

Glad everyone fared relatively well - please give Holly my best wishes.

[AlanD]

Nice write up. I also have a Transition jacket and am happy to hear that it held up well. The helmet picture should be a warning to all the fools who don't wear a helmet.

[Holly]

Oh... and here's a snap shot of the internal damage:


Donnie Unger of Duc Pond Motorsports http://www.ducpond.com/, btw, is AWESOME!  Though his shop is traditionally closed on Monday's, he help me out by "taking delivery" of my dead Duc (I guess its a lame Duc, since the motor is still runnin' strong... lol...).  He also gave Scott and I a quick tour of his shop.  Thank you Donnie!

Thank you Pam, Eric and Frank for your patience, caring and understanding.  I could ask for better friends and riding partners!

Best,
Holly

[dm_gsxr]

Good analysis, thanks. Glad to see everyone's ok. Holly must have been hitting it hard to do two stoppies!

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Oh... and here's a snap shot of the internal damage:


Donnie Unger of Duc Pond Motorsports http://www.ducpond.com/, btw, is AWESOME!  Though his shop is traditionally closed on Monday's, he help me out by "taking delivery" of my dead Duc (I guess its a lame Duc, since the motor is still runnin' strong... lol...).  He also gave Scott and I a quick tour of his shop.  Thank you Donnie!

Thank you Pam, Eric and Frank for your patience, caring and understanding.  I could ask for better friends and riding partners!

Best,
Holly

Looks like a Hippo  What are we looking at, MRI?

Carl

[Rincewind]

Very sorry to hear of your accident.  Best of healing to you and your bikes.  

[Holly]

Looks like a Hippo  What are we looking at, MRI?

Carl

The "hippo" is actually a snapshot from my cervical CT scan (and you're right... it DOES totally look like a hippo!  ).  The fracture is in the right (as you look at the image) boney process.  I love it when they give me my CT scans on CD.  Wanna see the titanium plates and screws in my checkbones from my 2005 hang gliding accident?  Those are shown in Sunday's CT scan as well .

Holly

[bsd43]

Wow, sorry to hear of the accident, but glad that everyone is mostly intact.

SW, did you feel the ABS kicking in? Or just a "it must have, since I stopped without a stoppie?"

[SWriverstone]

Wow, sorry to hear of the accident, but glad that everyone is mostly intact.

SW, did you feel the ABS kicking in? Or just a "it must have, since I stopped without a stoppie?"

Good question BSD. First, I should emphasize that it never occurred to me for a second to use the rear brake too. That's what we're taught in MSF (use both), but when the sh*t hit the fan, all I thought about was the front brake! Maybe I don't have enough training at emergency stops (using both), and for all I know, I might have stomped the rear too?

As to your question, no---all I remember was squeezing the front brake HARD...and coming to a fast, controlled, smooth stop. I never lost control of the bike, never felt a tire skid or slip, nothing. And I was steering for the shoulder at the same time I was squeezing with all my might.

So I give all the credit to ABS doing its job!  

Scott

[bizarro]

Very glad to hear you're alright Holly, and everyone else too. Big bummer no one got a plate number on that truck.

[servicerifle]

I'm sorry to hear about all the troubles, but I'm glad everyone is still more or less ok today!  I enjoyed meeting you guys, and I hope Holly heals up well!  

[SuperHans]

I had been riding behind Holly and can say I thought she was going to save it at one point. It didn't appear as if she had actually locked the front tire. The rear of the bike came up to about the 11 o'clock position and then came back down slightly. It then came back up and back down slightly again as if she had been modulating the brake to prevent a full forward flip. In a conversation with her later she said she was modulating the brake once she realized the back tire was in the air. I think once she made contact with Scott all bets were off and the bike did an endo.

It was pretty sickening to see her go over the bars and the bike come crashing down on her. Something I don't want to witness again. I seriously thought she had broken her neck by the way it had bent when the bike came down on her. We were all glad to see her up and talking after the incident.

It all happened pretty fast as these things usually do. I never saw any brake lights on the stopped truck and had actually wondered why Scott was stopping. I agree with Scott on the ABS doing its job. I had been riding two up with bags loaded and once I hit the brakes we came to a stop without incident. I don't know if the ABS kicked in but I'm glad I had it for instances like this.

Some pics of the scene.

[SWriverstone]

I'm sorry to hear about all the troubles, but I'm glad everyone is still more or less ok today!  I enjoyed meeting you guys, and I hope Holly heals up well!  

Thanks Steve---ESTN was such an awesome event that, on balance, we still have good memories of the weekend in spite of the accident!  

[BlueRidgeKat]

6. I am now a worshipper of ABS brakes. If anyone tells me they have a problem with them, I'll openly declare them an idiot. I know from experience now that in a panic situation, there is no such thing as "carefully modulating the brakes." If you think you're going to rear-end someone at 40+ mph and you have less than a second to stop, you WILL grab that front brake for all you're worth. The result? Of 4 bikes, 3 had ABS brakes and one didn't. Guess which bike ended up doing a stoppie and falling?

You will get no argument from me on that one. Theres a reason that more and more makes and models come standard with or offer the option of ABS.


 

[Green01SprintST]

Yikes!  That is some scarey stuff right there.  Good to know everyone is OK.  It's a safe bet the driver of the truck knows he doesn't have any brake lights, otherwise there would have been no reason for him to flee the scene (except maybe not wanting to face the wrath of 5 angry bikers!)  Kudos to all for being good friends and responsible riding buddies.  Heal well Holly!  

[SWriverstone]

The earlier pics of the bike are deceptive---it looks okay from a distance! Here are more details of the various rashes, broken parts, and ground-down places...

















Still waiting on the damage report from Donnie Unger...which I'm sure will be: $ $ $

Scott

[Holly]

Still waiting on the damage report ...which I'm sure will be: $ $ $

Scott

Sadly... this isn't the first, though it was certainly the worst, get off I've had on the 748, I am already all too aware of how expensive plastic and other bits are for my bike... upper fairing ~= $400, lower ~= $450, tail section ~= $1000, rim ~= $800 plus mirrors, turn signals, clutch cover (hopefully, the clutch is okay since I *just* replaced it last fall!), etc, etc, etc.  But like Scott said before... Donnie has some experience keeping bikes from getting salvage titles, so my fingers are crossed....

Holly

PS.  The two previous incidents were a tip over when I went wide in a right hander just east of Julian, CA and the other was when I dropped it in a parking lot .  After each of these, I simply picked the bike up and road home with nothing more than a bruised ego and a need for some minor plastic repair.  Gosh... when I put it that way, should I still consider myself a rider or a hazard?

[Hickey]

I'm glad to hear that you guys are OK.  The bikes can be repaired or replaced.  You guys on the other hand cannot be replaced.  

[DataDan]

A sort of tangential lesson is the difficulty of perceiving closing speed when motion is along the line of sight. This is called Motion Camouflage, and it's exactly what befuddles a cager who turns left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. Except the effect is amplified in that case because the motorcycle presents such a small profile to the observer. Thus, the "looming effect", whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size, occurs when the motorcycle is closer to the cager than you were to the pickup.

[SWriverstone]

A sort of tangential lesson is the difficulty of perceiving closing speed when motion is along the line of sight. This is called Motion Camouflage, and it's exactly what befuddles a cager who turns left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. Except the effect is amplified in that case because the motorcycle presents such a small profile to the observer. Thus, the "looming effect", whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size, occurs when the motorcycle is closer to the cager than you were to the pickup.

Great link DataDan. I definitely experienced this, because no matter how hard I try to reconstruct the moments before the accident in my mind, all I remember is one thing: the truck ahead was at a safe distance...and suddenly I was RUSHING up to it. It's one of those things that seems impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced it (e.g. "Aww c'mon! You mean you didn't notice the truck was stopped???") No! I didn't notice--and I was looking straight at it!! It just suddenly loomed very large in my field of view, and I found myself in an "oh-sh*t" moment.

Scott

[RideWV]

One word..."bummer".  Heal fast and don't let it shake your enthusiasm for motorcycling.

I'd say there's a good chance the truck guy knew it was illegal in some way or other, probably knew about the brakes.  Some old cars, especially, have really hard to see brake lights in direct sun as well.

James

PS. You could consider making the Duc a dedicated track bike and just leave the cosmetic stuff as is.  Then you could maybe buy something more ADV-ish or LD-ish if you're looking for a change, and have the best of both worlds.  But, then I turn everything in to an excuse to bike shop, lol.

[Yankee Dog]

from the descriptions it doesnt sound like ABS would have helped.  I have never triggered my ABS (I suppose I should just for practice) but from what I understand there is no mistaking it when it happens.  Anyway if SWstone had stopped any quicker then Holly would only have hit him harder/sooner.  

I am not sure it would have helped Holly either.  If your back end is up in the air then you are pretty much at maximum braking.  The front tire wasnt sliding so the ABS would not have kicked in.  Holly's problem wasnt her inabilty to perform an emergency stop, I dont think anyone could do better.  Her problem was caused by following too closely.  In my opinion most riders in a group follow too closely.  

Maybe she would have been better served by doing an avoidance swerve.  

Yankee Dog

[SWriverstone]

You make a good point Yankee Dog. Still, I've ridden Holly's bike a lot, and I know her Brembo front brake is wicked-powerful. you breath on that lever and it stops the bike at any speed! I can't help thinking if I had grabbed Holly's front brake as hard as I grabbed the VFR's ABS front brake, I'd have gone sailing through that truck's rear windshield!

Scott

[Yankee Dog]

My point exactly, the fact that she didnt do an endo is attest to her braking skills.  

YD

[kam]

OUCH!  That is a nasty little fracture.  

Hope you heal up soon.

[kendenton]

 

Glad to hear everyone's OK.  

[hobbes]

Sorry to hear of this. I'm glad Holly's and you are ok.

[MK96xj]

Holly,

Well done. You skill prevented much worse. Heal well and soon.

Sorry to see the Duc bruised like that. I was admiring it all weekend.

Mike

[kendenton]

As to your question, no---all I remember was squeezing the front brake HARD...and coming to a fast, controlled, smooth stop. I never lost control of the bike, never felt a tire skid or slip, nothing. And I was steering for the shoulder at the same time I was squeezing with all my might.

So I give all the credit to ABS doing its job!  

Scott

Even before I read your post ABS is on my must-have list for the next bike.  You can argue that it won't necessarily shorten your stopping distance, but it's nice to know you can just grab it as hard as you can as quick as you can with no dire consequences.  No modulation to really worry about, no getting to threshold braking, just BRAKE NOW.  I'm sure there are some circumstances where ABS might not be the best solution, but for 99% of the situations out there having instantly available maximum braking is a good thing.

[SWriverstone]

Even before I read your post ABS is on my must-have list for the next bike.  You can argue that it won't necessarily shorten your stopping distance, but it's nice to know you can just grab it as hard as you can as quick as you can with no dire consequences.  No modulation to really worry about, no getting to threshold braking, just BRAKE NOW.  I'm sure there are some circumstances where ABS might not be the best solution, but for 99% of the situations out there having instantly available maximum braking is a good thing.

Yeah, that's my feeling exactly Ken. I mean, to effectively use traditional brakes in a one-second emergency "your life is on the line" stop, you've got to spend HUGE amounts of time practicing hard stops in a parking lot (so proper modulation becomes second-nature). My guess is that 99.9% of motorcyclists don't have "traditional brake modulation" in their bloodstream that thoroughly (even though many think they do!).

I'm not taking away from what Holly did---as I said earlier, had it been me on the Duc I would've grabbed a fistful and gone through that truck's windshield!

But yes...anything that lets you simply REACT with split-second timing and considerable force is a good thing!

Scott

[RideWV]

I agree with Yankee Dog that in this case, for Holly, ABS may not have helped since she didn't lock up or endo (good job Holly).  For Swriverstone it may have given him the opportunity to point the bike toward the grass while braking as hard as he could.  My last bike had the original BMW ABS brakes and they worked but were crude and you could definitely tell when they kicked in but I hear the newer bikes are much smoother so maybe they were activated and he didn't feel it.

It sounds to me she was braking as hard as that bike would allow and just didn't have enough room.  Her bike has a short wheelbase and fairly high center of gravity which work against it for maximum braking potential when there is more than enough traction.  This effect is exaggerated during a panic stop because you don't have the time to shift weight toward the back of the bike.

James

[SuperHans]

Holly's problem wasn't her inability to perform an emergency stop, I don't think anyone could do better. Her problem was caused by following too closely. In my opinion most riders in a group follow too closely.

I pretty much agree with this statement. I don't think Holly or anyone else could have done any better of a job at braking under the circumstances. I witnessed the whole thing up close and was quite impressed with the fact she was still modulating the brake with the rear of the bike that high in the air. In a panic situation many people just couldn't do that.

I do think she had been following a little too closely though. Holly, I mean that as constructive criticism and not an insult. I know at times I had been following too closely over the weekend also. I just happened to be far enough back at that moment.

I will say that it is possible that ABS may have helped although I can't say for sure. I do know Holly would have been unable to put the rear of the bike in the air had her bike been ABS equipped. If both wheels would have been on the ground she may then have been able to perform an avoidance maneuver of some type. This is just speculation of course, we will never really know.

[SWriverstone]

I agree with Yankee Dog that in this case, for Holly, ABS may not have helped since she didn't lock up or endo (good job Holly).

Not arguing with you James---it's all good! :-) But Holly *did* endo---she almost (or did, we're not 100% sure) flipped the bike over the front tire. Though she did a great job trying to modulate the brake, as Eric said, her rear tire did come WAY off the ground. That's just bad news in an emergency situation any way you look at it (unless you're the world's best stunta).

So I guess my point is that---while we'll never know what would have happened to Holly if she had ABS brakes---it's logical to assume her rear tire would not have lifted, which in turn would likely have given her more control. Hence my feeling about ABS:     IMO, in an emergency, two tires on the ground are always better than one tire in the air!

Scott

[VIVID1]

Wow, I'm glad everyone is OK. Rick will cry when he reads the 748 is now crunchy, he loves that bike. Good luck making it all pretty again and ride safe y'all   Hope to ride with you guys soon!

[RideWV]

No worries Scott,

I realized she stoppied but didn't know she endo's.  Still if she hit the other bike before she endo's then it doesn't really matter.

If ABS kicks in because the rear wheel is off the ground or that the bike has changed angle in relationship to the ground,  then it probably would have helped her some.  Do they work that way?  I really don't know.  If not, they should.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a big ABS fan.

James

[Mr Sunshine]

Good question BSD. First, I should emphasize that it never occurred to me for a second to use the rear brake too. That's what we're taught in MSF (use both), but when the sh*t hit the fan, all I thought about was the front brake! Maybe I don't have enough training at emergency stops (using both), and for all I know, I might have stomped the rear too?

As to your question, no---all I remember was squeezing the front brake HARD...and coming to a fast, controlled, smooth stop. I never lost control of the bike, never felt a tire skid or slip, nothing. And I was steering for the shoulder at the same time I was squeezing with all my might.

So I give all the credit to ABS doing its job!  

Scott

As a frame of reference.  On my 2002 VFR when I was doing braking drills in the ERC the only reason I knew the ABS kicked in is because I could hear my rear tire skipping and the brake lever just went wooden.  So you won't feel anything in the brake lever when it kicks in.  Same feeling on my BMW R1150RT.

[SuperHans]

I realized she stoppied but didn't know she endo's.  Still if she hit the other bike before she endo's then it doesn't really matter.

She definitely did a stoppie. I'm not sure if the endo was a result of making contact with Scott or overbraking. The contact she made with Scott's bike was brief and light. Scott's bike sustained no damage from the contact so that shows how minimal the contact was.

I doubt an ABS equipped bike will stoppie. At least I've never heard of this happening on a bike with properly functioning ABS. Anybody have information proving otherwise?

[SuperHans]

Rick will cry when he reads the 748 is now crunchy, he loves that bike.

It is one beautiful bike. One of my favorite Duc's.

[Mostrogirl]

Glad to hear that you two are OK!!  Ride safe and see you soon!

[kendenton]

It is one beautiful bike. One of my favorite Duc's.

Amen, brother.  I met Holly at the Meet and Eat, and was almost embarassed to park my Multi next to her 748.  Hard to believe the same company put out both designs.

[DogBoy]

Glad it wasn't worse.

You mentioned not even thinking about the rear brake which is odd because I believe your VFR has linked brakes (Hona's term is LBS) and my understanding is the rear brake is working even when you just use the front brake lever. Isn't that the case?

I had something similar happen within a month of when I first started riding. I was following a van too closely. It had no brake lights and I panicked and stabbed the rear brake and dropped the bike at about 5 mph. All my fault as I was following too closely. I haven't trusted brake lights ever since. Its odd. I probably see one car every week, even new models, where the brake lights do not work.

[Mr Sunshine]

A sort of tangential lesson is the difficulty of perceiving closing speed when motion is along the line of sight. This is called Motion Camouflage, and it's exactly what befuddles a cager who turns left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. Except the effect is amplified in that case because the motorcycle presents such a small profile to the observer. Thus, the "looming effect", whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size, occurs when the motorcycle is closer to the cager than you were to the pickup.

Interesting.  I experienced this to some degree this past Saturday when I came in to pit during my endurance race.  Two things really helped me out in guaging distance.

1.  I knew they were stopped (the people standing in the pit which I had to aim for  )
2.  The team manager was waving his hand up and down in a "slow down" motion.  This really allowed me to figure out my distance much better.

[BlueRidgeKat]

I doubt an ABS equipped bike will stoppie. At least I've never heard of this happening on a bike with properly functioning ABS. Anybody have information proving otherwise?

I would like to see some info on this as well. I was thinking the same thing.... you cant do a stoppie with ABS.
Actually what good is ABS if you have to modulate to keep from doing a endo before the ABS kicks in. If thats the case then ABS would never ever kick in unless you already have the front wheel locked while sliding on sand or in gravel. ABS does not work on dry grippy pavement ? ? You grab a handful of front brake thinking the ABS will kick in and you will maintain control but instead you go flying over the handlebars ? ? ?
Obviously there is alot I dont understand about ABS.

[Holly]

With regard to following distance...

Couldn't agree more.... I should maintain a greater following distance. when I'm on my bike  I was trying to instill a new "greater following distance" habbit this weekend due to some observations I'd made about myself recently.  Alas.... new habbits are hard to make and I was still following too closely leading up to this accident.  Like I said on my personal blog.. "Accident postmortem: Though my riding partners and I all believe the proximate cause of the accident was the rapid deceleration of the vehicles in front of us and the apparent lack of brake lights on the truck in front of us, I certainly would have been in a better position to safely come to a stop if I maintained a greater following distance from my riding partners."

[stefrrr]

Glad to hear you're all right Holly. Want to join the ESTN "Crash kids" club?  

[SWriverstone]

You mentioned not even thinking about the rear brake which is odd because I believe your VFR has linked brakes (Hona's term is LBS) and my understanding is the rear brake is working even when you just use the front brake lever. Isn't that the case?

Yes, the VFR has linked brakes. My understanding is the "linked" part doesn't apply them equally---if you apply front only, you get 100% front plus something like 25-50% rear and vice-versa (but someone might have more specific info on this?).

As for ABS preventing stoppies and endos, I agree--what's the point of ABS if your rear takes flight? Again, I only know I squeezed that front brake very hard and very fast, and my bike was rock-solid, stayed on the ground, and stopped pretty danged fast! I don't remember feeling anything unusual (e.g. no pumping, skipping tires, nothing---just deceleration).

Scott

[awlittle]

I imagine any modern ABS system communicates to a central micro processor that compares wheel spin, not only from individual wheels, but in comparison between the wheels as well and therefore the computer would sense the rear wheel was free spinning or locked and would adjust front braking to prevent the rear wheel leaving the pavement for any substantial period of time.
Just a guess, but  I ASSume no company would be foolish enough to put an ABS bike on the market capable of endo-ing.
Glad you are OK.  I agree with the post that the LBS deserves some credit.  On the Duc that very well could have prevented the accident (assuming Holly could have slowed and weaved or stopped in time).
Again, glad you are both OK.

[1TallTXn]

Glad to hear y'all walked away.  

The VFRs linked brakes are a bit different.

Applying rear brake lever only pushes 2/3 of the rear pots and 1/6 of the front (Front Left)
Applying the front brake lever only applies 5/6 of the front pots and 1/3 of the rear (center)

So to get 6/6 of the front and 3/3 on the rear, you have to use both levers at the same time

[BlueRidgeKat]

ABS does not work on dry grippy pavement ? ? You grab a handful of front brake thinking the ABS will kick in and you will maintain control but instead you go flying over the handlebars ? ? ?

Well, according to what I can get out of this link, I suppose even with ABS, unless you lock the front wheel into a slide so the ABS kicks in then the rear end can and will come up and over your windscreen you will go.

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP209.html

I have read alot of comments from you guys/girls who have ABS in which you state that you have never tried it or pushed it to that limit just to see how it works......... good for you... DONT try it.

[RideWV]

Just did some quick research on ABS stoppies...

For a stoppie to happen the front and rear wheels would have to be decelerating at the same rate to within 5% (on BMWs anyway) even while the rear wheel was off the ground.  I suppose that if you had rolled off the throttle and engine braking (or light rear brake) was slowing the rear wheel at nearly exactly the same rate as the front brake was slowing the front wheel then ABS would not kick in and you could stoppie/endo.  Obviously that's not likely.  Someday all street bikes will have ABS.

It also turns out that most ABS bikes are large, long motorcycles which would be tough to stoppie anyway.  There traditionally aren't many stoppie-friendly motorcycles with the ABS option, ironically.

James

[mch]

I'm glad to hear all involved are ok, different degrees of ok but it sure could have been much worse.

Great analysis of what happened. I think most of us tend to move too close at times when traveling in a group. And I know I have found myself closing on a vehicle at a high rate when just a nanosecond before I thought we were both at the same speed. I also don't practice my emergency braking skills near enough. Good lessons for a lot/most/all of us, I believe.

Matt

[Liquidsilver]

Kudos to all for being good friends and responsible riding buddies.  Heal well Holly!  

 
+1000!    

[FJRmgm]

glad you are ok but +1 to this ---> "Her problem was caused by following too closely.  In my opinion most riders in a group follow too closely."

I make it a point to tell others when in a group ride to stay back away from me.

[hovmaven]

Holly/Scott -- geez, I'm sitting here in Africa and I am so sorry to read of your adventure.  
Glad to hear it didn't end badly.  

Modulating from an 11:00 stoppie -- Holly, congratulations.  I wish one day to have such skill.  But, because I have a vfr abs, that is a skill I may never develop.  

FWIW -- I know all too well how good the vfr's abs linked brakes can be -- just ask DNA about our trip to Atlanta . . ..  

When you need them, they are there. The bike just sits down and stops.  No endo's, no skidding, no drama.  They just plain work.

I never leave home without them.  

Best of luck with the fix-up.  In the meantime, enjoy Scott's KLR.  

[MSL217]

I'm glad you guys are OK. I really enjoyed riding with you last year and I hope everything works out OK.

[MarcS]

Glad you all are OK!

That VFR looks kind of sexy, all crashed like that...  

[RickC1957]

Wow, I'm glad everyone is OK. Rick will cry when he reads the 748 is now crunchy, he loves that bike. Good luck making it all pretty again and ride safe y'all   Hope to ride with you guys soon!

Well I'll cry some other time for the bikes! Right now I'm glad that everyone ok and injuries are minor! The bikes can be replaced or repaired....Scott and Holly cannot! I know both will be pretty sore for the next week to 10 days (recent experience ) so just take that Aleve in the morning and evening and take it easy. 4 riders down in less than a week....everyone ride safe.....r.

[basco]

I am glad to hear you guys are ok.  

I thought I saw you on the BRP at one of the turnouts. Who would have thought something like this would happen soon after.

Seeing things come up quick and Mr. SS quoted this, about misjudging speed of objects. It happened to me a couple times this past weekend but I was able to compensate. Maybe Holly misjudged distance rather than following too close. I am really not defending her but I know some about misjudging distance and target fixation and offering another possible scenario.

[SuperHans]

I thought I saw you on the BRP at one of the turnouts. Who would have thought something like this would happen soon after.

Yep, that was us, I so you go by on a Sprint ST.

[uvakat]

Glad to see that you guys are doing okay. Holly, hope you heal up quickly.

[evilmedic13]

Glad to hear everyone is okay. Sounds like a bad way to end a good day, but everybody went home and the bike'll get some new pieces instead of Holly.

[MacGyver]

Did somebody say 1098?  

[Tyrroneous]

I have read alot of comments from you guys/girls who have ABS in which you state that you have never tried it or pushed it to that limit just to see how it works......... good for you... DONT try it.

I gotta disagree with the above statement.  I don't understand the reason to NOT tryout the ABS systeme.  By all means, experiment with your ABS systems.  Get to know what it takes to activate it, how it feels, how the bike responds when the ABS is kicked in.  All that knowledge might come in handy at some point.  I generally activate the ABS once or twice a week just for kicks.  

On my VFR, the only thing that lets me know the ABS is activated is the chirping of the tire.  There is no pulsing in the lever at all.  


Anyway, I'm off the ol' soapbox now.  

Holly and Scott, I'm glad things didn't turn out worse.  Sounds like y'all handled it about as well as could be expected.  Heal quickly Holly!

As I leave for my trip the the mtns. this weekend, this will serve as a fresh reminder to watch my following distance.  

[servicerifle]

Not that this thread should be jacked and switched to an ABS thread, but I will add my 2 cents in, as well.  I'd like to have ABS, but don't on my current bike and my "next" planned bike doesn't have it either.  IF I had it, I must admit, I would test it.  I'm just that kinda person.

[Shhted]

 

Sorry to hear about the crash, but glad that everyone was able to walk away.  Heal quick and heal well.

Seconded.

[photomd]

Scott and Holly,

I'm very sorry to hear about your accident. FWIW, if you come to SC, realize that vehicles down here don't have to have operating brake lights.   Southern logic.

It's great to hear that y'all are OK. Holly, also give yourself time to heal. Bones take 4-6 weeks to heal and there's some important stuff next to that fracture.

As for ABS, I test mine every time flush the brake fluid: about every 10K miles. Mine has never threatened to stand up. I've even leaned up on the tank like I do on my CR to do a stoppie. It just calmly comes to stop...very quickly. On my version of BMW's ABS, you can hear the pump motor cycling. I don't think mine compares front to rear wheel speed. I think it simply monitors the rate of decel.

As for doing a stoppie, on my CR the forks must first compress then you really do have to lock the front a bit to get the rear to come up. I'm not an expert at this and mine are kinda wimpy... maybe 12 inches up in the rear. However, it does take some pretty strong inputs to get the rear off the ground. I don't think ABS would allow this...of course I've been wrong before.  

Anyway, glad y'all are OK. Ride safe.  

[DNA]

Sad news - I hope the healing goes well.
The bike will get fixed or replaced.
Is there any long term prognosis on the fracture?
I still hurt from an accident 20 years ago that continues to deteriate.
-DNA
PS - Great job stopping and a good write up.   Had that been the NoVA group, we'd all be truck paint.

[Penforhire]

Wow.  This could have been much worse.  Thanks for describing a hazard we don't usually think about in such detail.

Regardless of whether ABS would have influenced this result, I decided years ago to not buy a new street bike without it.  As you noticed panic diminishes skill, by definition.

[R Doug]

I just wanted to chime in and throw out my condolances of having to go through that experience.  It was nice having breakfast with all you Sunday morning.

Scott, that was an excellent report on what happened and I did receive a "takeaway" from your report.  Motion Camouflage is something I'll need to be more attentive to going forward.

Holly, thanks for chiming in.  Heal up and please give us updates on your progress.

[Holly]

Thank you for all of the well wishes.  I'm not good at "taking easy".... I fairly well loose my mind if I'm not doing something all the time, so this stay-at-home-and-rest thing has been tough.  I think I've scanned, filed, FAXed just about every piece of paper I can find on my desk plus some! lol....

Scott keeps telling me to go for a soak in our hot tub, but that would mean more bending over.  My back still isn't thrilled with that movement, though it is getting better.

With regard to my prognosis... I've been trying to get in to see an orthopedic and neurologist all week.  So far, no discernible progress has been made (all the neurologists I've reached out to don't want to deal with me until the medical coverage from my motorcycle insurance has been exhausted... guess they've had bad experiences getting payment from insurance companies?).  With regard to the orthopedic specialist... they don't want to see me until the ER medical report is release to them which involved ortho FAXing a form to me so I could sign and FAX it to the hospital.  Now I'm waiting for healthcare bureaucracy to slowly churn and FAX the report to ortho.  Maybe I'll get a call back to schedule an appointment next week, which... as luck would have it, is when I need to return to work... in NYC and away from all the medical offices I’ve been dealing with .

Have I mentioned my life is complicated?  

[Lon]

Oh... and here's a snap shot of the internal damage:

Glad you're (mostly) okay!  Rest up, and get back on a bike as soon as you can.  I don't know your crash history, but the longer you wait, the harder it is.

[Lon]

I have read alot of comments from you guys/girls who have ABS in which you state that you have never tried it or pushed it to that limit just to see how it works......... good for you... DONT try it.

I do it occasionally as part of hard-stop practice.  I nail each one independently as well as both at the same time.

[Against The Wind]

Wow! I missed this thread up till now. Sorry to hear about the crash. And let me add my best wishes for a speedy recovery. It was great to chat with you in the parking lot so it comes as a bit of a shock to find out later that the same people were involved in a mess. It is ironic that many spent the weekend thrashing the bikes over incredibly twisty roads only to have this happen on a flat straight. On the other hand, there were almost no 4 wheelers on the twisties, so maybe it's not irony. In any event, heal well.

[Fun Dog]

"Eric, Pam, Frank and I then hit the road at about 11pm and rode the 180 miles back to my house in Harpers Ferry, where we all crashed. The next morning, Eric, Pam and Frank hit the road for home (PA), and I drove back to Lynchburg to pick up Holly."

Frightened me there...thought the 3 of you wrecked again when you got back to Harper's Ferry.

Glad everyone's O.K., and thanks for this report as I have never heard of this "closing/rushing" phenomenon before.  I'll try to beware of it.

[TWI]

Well, according to what I can get out of this link, I suppose even with ABS, unless you lock the front wheel into a slide so the ABS kicks in then the rear end can and will come up and over your windscreen you will go.

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP209.html

I have read alot of comments from you guys/girls who have ABS in which you state that you have never tried it or pushed it to that limit just to see how it works......... good for you... DONT try it.

Excuse me while I wave the BS flag.  BS!!

I have tested the ABS on my bike and on the previous ones I have owned with ABS.  They work as advertised.  

As far as the link:  So the CG is 2" above the seat.  For a 100 lb rider as well as a 300 lb rider?  For a 300 lb bike as well as a 800 lb bike?  But wait, it must correct; it has a spreadsheet in it!


I believe SWRiverstone's original observation was correct.  The bikes with ABS behaved better in an emergency situation.  This is not to discount Holly's control; she did the best one could hope for given the situation.  Keep on healing, Holly.

[MacGyver]

Wanna learn how your bike behaves at lower braking friction limits?  Go blast down a dirt road on your bike.  Harley, Bimmer, it really doesn't matter.  After years of driving all types of bikes down dirt roads,  I have no qualms about hammering down on either the front or rear brakes at any speed.    Two wheel slides?  ,  If you stay limber you can retain the fine motor function in your hands which is neccessary for modulating brakes by hand.  Tuck the front end?  Only if your a retard hellbent on making the orthopedic surgeons of the world rich.    
Holly's response was the best anyone could expect in those conditions.  Holly, heal quickly with your live-in Dr. Seuss.

[chornbe]

Scott, et al, I'm glad everyone is OK. Bikes can be fixed or replaced easily enough; they're just machines. That truly sucks that the other vehicles were obviously too busy to stay and help  

Completely agreed on the ABS!! I won't go back.

And coming from a gear whore and borderline safety nazi, Great Job on WEARING THE GEAR!!  

[Snowbird]

Here's hoping the injury heals quickly.

It also turns out that most ABS bikes are large, long motorcycles which would be tough to stoppie anyway.  There traditionally aren't many stoppie-friendly motorcycles with the ABS option, ironically.

To me it sounds more like the short wheelbase and steep fork architecture of the Duc was more at fault than was the "lack of ABS." Of course, couple this with multiple rider errors such as following distances, approach speeds, failure to take into account the sun position (low sun at your back means both that you may not see brake lights AND that oncoming cars might not see you), etc.

This is another example of why I'm reluctant to ride in groups. Is it just me or do many of the accidents reported here seem to occur while group riding?  

[chornbe]

Nope, you're right on all points.

I also think that ABS is a great thing for those times when judgment slips, or when road condition, weather condition, etc., might not be favorable.

[Holly]

Well.... got the call from my insurance adjuster and things are not looking good.  He estimates the repairs will cost about $5,900 and the bike may only be worth about $5,000.  He's going to do a bit of market research, but .... it looks like my 748 may be a total loss

Holly

[servicerifle]

Well, this brings up yet another question then.  Obviously the bike is "fine" but just not pretty anymore.  It wouldn't take much to have it back on the road.  So, I've often wondered, once a bike gets totalled, how do you "get it back" without paying too much for it, or what happens next?

[SWriverstone]

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing Steve. I mean, the engine on the bike is fine---it started right up and ran fine after the accident. It's mainly a long list of other parts that need replacing (new rear wheel, new turn signals, new pegs, new lever, new grip, new windscreen, etc.).

I know Holly doesn't want to ride a rashed-up bike, and the bike being a 748 (possibly the most beautiful motorcycle design in history), I don't blame her. It's just depressing!

It does seem amazing though that the bike could run fine, yet still be considered "totaled."  

It would make a damn fine track bike for someone---the 748 is about as perfect a track bike as you can have. Don't know what Holly wants to do yet...but I suspect she'll end up selling it as a track bike (hopefully getting a couple thousand out of it), then put the money towards a new one.

Scott

[jed]

You can buy the bike back from the insurance company or just not process the claim.  If you don't process it then all repairs are out of pocket but the title status remains clear.  If you buy it back you are going to get a salvage or salvage/rebuildable title along with it.  The bike will not be street legal.  You can have a salvage title converted to a regular title (at least here in GA you can) if you go to a certified rebuilder to have it inspected.  The law states that the rebuild has to be done by a certified shop, but I think with bikes they just eyeball it.

If it were me I'd buy the obvious parts that you need right now to ride and live with the rash as best as you could.  Just think that the pavement won't find it as attractive now so it should stay upright!

Glad you weren't hurt too bad, and sorry about the bike.

[SWriverstone]

Thanks for that explanation Jed---I've been confused by the whole salvage-title thing, so that helps clear it up.
Scott

[hobbes]

I wish I could afford to not ride a rashed up bike.



My FZ1 needs about $400 in plastics to be perfect again. (scratches, etc...) Let Holly know if she wants to trade for her 748 after it's near fixed.

[DogBoy]

Check with your local DMV. Salvage title bikes are street legal in CA.

Anyway, it won't cost nearly as much to fix it yourself as the estimate.

[SWriverstone]

Holly did a Google search on “WV salvage vehicle title” and discovered WV has another category of loss called “Cosmetic Total Loss.”  See the following: http://www.dmv.org/wv-west-virginia/salvaged-vehicles.php

"A cosmetic total loss occurs when the vehicle is deemed to be a total loss, but the damages are entirely cosmetic. Unlike a salvage vehicle, a vehicle that is a cosmetic total loss should require no repairs in order for it to operate both legally and safely in West Virginia. If your vehicle is a cosmetic total loss, you must complete an Application for Cosmetic Total Loss Certification. The fee is $10."

Scott

[jed]

That sounds like a good deal if you can get the insurance folks to go along with that.  If Holly is looking to find a good home for the bike I'd be willing to make some space in my garage.  Those 748s are beautiful!

[garry]

Scott/Holly,

You may be amazed at how little the insurance company wants for the bike if they total it. You could buy it back for perhaps under $1000. Since the damage is minor or cosmetic, I would consider buying the bike back, and repairing it via eBay or new paint.

[Elseanno]

Sorry to hear about this. Glad Holly isn't worse off and the rest are ok.

Learn what you can from this. Many if not most of us have had close calls that resemble this wreck, I know I have. Keep the eyes forward and don't focus on one spot is what I've learned. sometimes though things just suprise you.

I am wondering, was there there traffic in the oncomming lane? Could you see? I'm thinking you might have had an additional escape route... I dunno, I wasn't there so I am only looking to suggest possible alternatives in the future.

Elseanno

[SWriverstone]

I am wondering, was there there traffic in the oncomming lane? Could you see? I'm thinking you might have had an additional escape route... I dunno, I wasn't there so I am only looking to suggest possible alternatives in the future.

Nope. It was a flat, straight, utterly empty road except for the two vehicles ahead of us. A rural area (nothing commercial anywhere around). I think my last-millisecond thought process was...

LEFT: could be someone turning left, NO!
RIGHT: grassy shoulder, GO!

So I braked hard and aimed for the shoulder, which worked for me. Holly did too, because if you go back and look at the yellow strip her fairing made on the pavement, it's crossing the right edge of the road and angled toward the shoulder too. (If I hadn't been in the way she might well have made it!)

I remember seeing the truck far ahead. It appeared to be traveling at only slightly less than our rate of speed...so I didn't think anything of it. Because we were likely moving 5-7mph faster than the truck, we closed distance slowly, and at that point the truck still seemed to be moving at normal highway speed.

Then all I remember is the gap just vanishing, and the truck looming VERY large...and that's when survival mode kicked in!

Scott

[Snowbird]

How did the truck's skid marks end up on the road? Avoiding Holly or did the guy brake check you?  

[SWriverstone]

How did the truck's skid marks end up on the road? Avoiding Holly or did the guy brake check you?  

There were actually two vehicles ahead. From what I can tell, a small compact car in front of the truck slammed on the brakes to make a sudden left turn, and the truck did the same. We could only see the truck, which completely blocked the smaller car from our view.

I'm not 100% sure those skid marks were made during our accident, but it's highly likely...since what are the chances of us going down right next to the only pre-existing skidmarks on an empty stretch of road in the middle of nowhere?

Scott

[Yankee Dog]

As for Holly's insurance problem.  I had something similiar when I dropped my old Trophy.  The bike was perfectly rideable but the repair estimate totaled it.  I really didnt have the money to sink into a new bike at the time so I talked with the insurance adjuster.  He agreed to pay me the maximum amount he could pay without having to total the bike.  I then could then decide what you fix and what not to fix.  

What drives the price of the repair estimate up is the repair shop writes every part on the bike that even has a nick on it.  For example on the Trophy the bottom of one of the pipes had a scratch, $500.  Could not be seen unless you were on your back looking under the bike.  The nose fairing has a nick about the size of a pencil eraser $1500.  These were both items I could live with.  So I found a local bump shop to repaint the bad spots, replaced a couple of other parts and lived with the rest.  

The overall result was I got to keep a bike that ran fine and didnt have to deal with a salvage title when I later sold it.   Now Holly's bike is a bit more rashed up than the Trophy was, but this is an avenue you might want to explore.  

Yankee Dog

[jed]

I say take the total on the bike and tell the insurance guy to give me a call.  I'll take it off their hands  

Even rashed up that thing is still dead sexy.

[Snowbird]

As for Holly's insurance problem.

Let's hope WV isn't like NY, or she may have a real "insurance problem!"

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,8345.0.html

[Johnny Monsoon]

As usual I'm late to the party...

Really sorry to hear about the getoff.  Oddly, I recently had a pickup truck do exactly the same thing to me just a couple weeks ago; it was equally light-less.  That's one helluva pucker moment; it seems like your brain simply doesn't want to accept what's happening.  Thankfully I was running UP (and damn fast) and had an easy exit around him with a clear shot of the open, oncoming lane.  Scared the crap out of me!

Congrats for making it through without too much wrong.  I'm really, really glad to hear that you two are okay.  Really glad.

[Snowbird]

Pickup trucks have a bad reputation amoung motorcyclists for good reason. And I concur. Even though I personally own one, a lot of PUtrk drivers are azzholes.

(Not me, of course.)  

[SWriverstone]

Well...it looks like the 748 may have reached the end of its cherished association with our garage.  

Holly heard from the insurance adjuster this morning. Looks like the total damage assessment is around $5200---equal to (or greater than) the worth of the bike.

We could buy the bike back from Geico with a salvage title for $800...but of course we'd have to pay a lot to make it rideable again, and even more (if possible) to make it street-legal. Holly won't ride it looking beat-up, and I don't blame her---it's just too depressing for such a beautiful bike.

We both loved that bike...but our love isn't so great that we'll stop at nothing to recondition it for the street. And neither of us needs nor wants a track bike right now.

Ultimately, it's Holly's decision...but my recommendation to her was "take the money and run," and I think she agrees. She'd get a $5000+ check from Geico, which could go toward a brand-new bike. She might opt for a new bike of her own...or she might just start riding my VFR...and I'll buy a new bike.

I have no idea what Holly would want if she buys a new bike? I'm not sure what I'd want either...but I'm leaning strongly toward......a V-Strom DL-1000! I prefer the upright seating position over a sport-riding position...and I'd opt for the 1000 because I'd only use it for street touring (I have the KLR for real dual-sporting).

But I'm being premature---it's Holly's call, and I'll support her no matter what.  

It's all very sad. We both have very fond memories of that bike---the 748 (and of course the 916) are such legendary icons (and high points) in motorcycle design history. And it was the bike I learned to ride on! (I know---I was a lucky bastid.) And the sound? Omigosh---only a Ducati---and only a 748---could make that glorious sound!

Scott

[DNA]

Scott,

Not wanting to sound like a vulture after your misfortune, I would strongly suggest you buy the bike for $800.

There are so many track newbs here that you will certainly have a buyer and possible make a little cash as well.  Being so close to Summit, the market is already here.

I would love to track that bike if:
1) I had any cash
2) I had any experience

My first track bike will go down a time or 2, so a rashed up one is a great place to start.  

[garry]

I will also suggest buying the bike back for $800. I might even consider buying it myself for $800 and fixing it up. Do you have an official list of the damage?

[mrfun]

Buy that bike back. There will be a plethora of offers for it!

[RideWV]

You should have an STN blind auction.  I'd love to have it too.  Can't go wrong buying it back at that price.

James

[Snowbird]

Yeah, that's make a great track bike.

I think ABS on the rear brake is a good idea. Apparently, so does Honda as photos of their MotoGP bikes showed ABS on the rear.

Question for the racers among us: During a race, do you normally brake to the max possible, just short of lock up? I suspect not...  One, the brakes would not take it for extended periods. Two, chassis stability would suffer. Three, smoothness and high cornering speed I'm guessing win races better than ham fisted inputs.

[SWriverstone]

LOL, well, I guess it makes sense to buy the bike back for only $800. We don't have the actual damage list, but Holly will talk to Donnie Unger at DucPond Motorsports today.

I know the engine runs great...the important items (repair-wise) are likely a replacement rear wheel, replacement pegs, replacement brake lever...and (possibly most expensive) repairs to the rear subframe (if it got tweaked, which it might have).

I like your auction idea James!  

Scott

[hovmaven]

FWIW, I'd buy that bike back in a heartbeat.  

Add me to the list.  

[bsd43]

STN Raffle!!! j/k

[RideWV]

ST.N Beaverun Track Bike Timeshare.  Ten people buy in for $200, money goes toward necessary parts and initial $800 investment.

James

[Emerson00]

Great link DataDan. I definitely experienced this, because no matter how hard I try to reconstruct the moments before the accident in my mind, all I remember is one thing: the truck ahead was at a safe distance...and suddenly I was RUSHING up to it. It's one of those things that seems impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced it (e.g. "Aww c'mon! You mean you didn't notice the truck was stopped???") No! I didn't notice--and I was looking straight at it!! It just suddenly loomed very large in my field of view, and I found myself in an "oh-sh*t" moment.

Scott

Late to this. Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

I had the exact same thing happen a couple weeks ago on my way home from work in the cage... car ahead was stopped - I just, simply, completely, failed to recognize that it was stopped. I drove through the guy's trunk, totalling his car, and nearly totalling my own. (everyone was physically fine at the scene, though the dude has now decided to try to turn it into a paycheck)

The most frustrating part of the thing was that I had the radio off, the phone off, the windows up, and was doing not one single thing but driving. Then he was approching fast, adn the truck has no ABS - I literally skidded into him and through his trunk. Indeed, I remember clearly thinking " oh, look the airbags are going off, yep, it's filling up... I guess I did make contact with his car. Strange I thought I wasn't there yet..." all in the timespan between the steering wheel opening up and the airbags were fully inflated... I remember watching the airbag wrinkles get flattened out under pressure.

WTF is up with that? I couldn't recognize a stopped car, but could process visually and in words the fractino of a second the airbags opened?

So, Scott, I know the frustration... it'd be easier if I had an excuse (talking on the phone, listening to the radio loud, etc...)

[RideWV]

How is Holly feeling?

James

[SWriverstone]

Holy Cow Emerson00!!   Really sorry to hear of that. I'm telling ya, it's that "motion camouflage" thing again---everyone on this board should TAKE WARNING: a stopped vehicle in front---especially if it's in your lane of traffic, facing the same direction, and (worse) is stopped in the middle of nowhere---is a LOT harder to "register on the brain" than it sounds.

I'm glad you're okay Emerson (even if the car isn't). I'm still struggling to understand how I didn't notice the vehicle stopped ahead of us sooner...  

Scott

[SWriverstone]

How is Holly feeling?

James

Thanks for asking James. She's doing well, almost fully recovered. She rode her bicycle to the train station yesterday and reported a little lower back pain, but nothing bad.

She took a Ducati ST3 for a test spin a few days ago and liked it---she wasn't THRILLED with it, but said it was nice and felt like a Ducati! The dealer made her a great offer---his last remaining '06 on the floor (black) for sale at dealer cost. So Holly's chewing over the decision now---either buy the ST3...or ride my VFR. (Yeah I know, everyone is screaming TAKE THE DUCATI!!!!)

Scott

[Tar Snake]

Wow! I'm late to this too. Glad to read everybody is OK? I hope Holly's fracture is healing correctly! Bikes can be rebuilt, replaced, people, no. So glad the people involved seem to have come out OK.

What sticks in my mind is the comment about following too closely in a group. I'm guilty of that, and even before reading any of this I've become wary of group riding unless the group is very small, like me and another rider or two.

I think larger groups should be broken into little pods and spaced out. This would also help with another group (sounds like it didn't affect the ESTN group at all) problem: fast riding and the "need" to keep up.

Best Wishes and recovery and bike hunting! Excellent analysis write-up! thanks for posting it.

[basco]

Thanks for asking James. She's doing well, almost fully recovered. She rode her bicycle to the train station yesterday and reported a little lower back pain, but nothing bad.

She took a Ducati ST3 for a test spin a few days ago and liked it---she wasn't THRILLED with it, but said it was nice and felt like a Ducati! The dealer made her a great offer---his last remaining '06 on the floor (black) for sale at dealer cost. So Holly's chewing over the decision now---either buy the ST3...or ride my VFR. (Yeah I know, everyone is screaming TAKE THE DUCATI!!!!)

Scott

Sounds like she is getting better. The ST3 is a great bike, I just wished the pegs were in a better position. See if you can get a test ride on both and see what is the better bike. Maybe, if she is interested in the ST3, get her to try the Sprint.  

[Galo]

Emerson, Holly.....I'm late to the party but wishing u the best with the situation and Holly...glad u are okay!

[SWriverstone]

Maybe, if she is interested in the ST3, get her to try the Sprint.  

I suggested the Sprint. She said "Nope, don't like the looks and don't want to sound like the Jetsons."    

Scott

[keystonejenks]

Glad to hear Holly is doing well and I can tell by her "sense of humor" (regarding Triumphs) - she'll be back on a bike in no-time.

[DNA]

I suggested the Sprint. She said "Nope, don't like the looks and don't want to sound like the Jetsons."    

Scott

I thought you said she was doing well.
Sounds like she might have sustained a slight head injury.

[RideWV]

Glad to hear Holly is mending.

VFR..ST3..no losers there.  If she wants a light twin tourer, she should also ride the BMW F800ST.

James

[meanstrk]

Very sorry to read the report, but at the same time, relieved that all turned out as well as it did. Could have been soooo much worse had either of you hit the truck.

A few months back I totalled my Katana out primarily due to following too close. No injuries due to full leathers, but the bike was completely destroyed with bent frame, swingarm, plastics trashed, bars bent, etc.......

I just recently got the bike back on the road through determination and the outpouring of the Katana community!

BTW......... If you DO decide to sell, I would possibly be interested and would seriously consider purchasing as is. I am looking for a Duc 748 for a track bike!

[SWriverstone]

Thanks for continued well-wishes. And to all who expressed interest in the 748...it's looking like at this point, it's out of our hands, and will probably end up at DucPond Motorsports in Winchester...

http://www.ducpond.com/

Not sure what they'll do with it if this is the case? (Though Donnie Unger is a racer, so he'd easily get into track shape.) If this changes, I'll let you know!

Scott

[hovmaven]

Since track use isn't an interest for either of you, taking the check makes sense.  

[SWriverstone]

Since track use isn't an interest for either of you, taking the check makes sense.  

Well, I *am* interested in the track...just don't have any time for it.   Kinda sucks, considering I live 15 minutes from Summit Point! One day, though, I'll get more into it. (Then I'll be the "Geezer Terror of Summit Point!" LOL)

At least I got to take the 748 out there once...so I know what an awesome track bike it is!  

Scott

[SWriverstone]

Well, it's official—Holly wrote a check today for a black 2003 Ducati ST3!   She didn't get ABS, which (in light of her accident) I think might have been a bit shortsighted...but they gave her a screamin' deal on it, with out-the-door cost right at about $11K (so I too might have said "screw it" to ABS for that price). Sadly, we don't get to bring it home 'til next weekend (something about having to do the state inspection on the bike).

I sat on a Multistrada and have to admit it felt pretty nice...and a black Multi would look nice in the garage next to a black ST3! But...I still want a little more off-pavement capability...so I'm still leaning heavily toward the V-Strom.

We said goodbye to the 748 one last time—it was sitting in the shop alongside a 916. Very sad—we will both always love that bike. But hey Rick—Holly gets to look just like you now!  

Scott

[hovmaven]

Very nice.  

So when does the VFR go on the block?  

[RideWV]

Congrats to Holly!  I'm envious.

That VFR can start packing it's Givi's, it's on its way out for sure, lol.

James

[hovmaven]

I have to make sure it leaves our area.  I enjoyed being the only asphalt vfr around. . ..  

[SWriverstone]

Very nice.  

So when does the VFR go on the block?  

You're being a great sport John! I thought for sure you'd try to dissuade me from selling the VFR.   And the truth is, I do love the VFR...it's just a "personal fit" issue I have with it...and I'll be sad to see it go as well. It's at the dealer now getting the 16K service (including valves). As soon as it's back (this week) I plan to give it a good bath, take some professional-looking shots...and put it on the block!

I'm sort of torn over whether to leave the bags on or off for the sales pics. I mean, isn't it likely someone would want the bags with it?

Scott

[hovmaven]

They'd want the bags -- for sure.  But they wouldn't want to pay for them. . ..  

As with most farkles, you probably get more $$$ separately.  Post a feeler on the VFR board to see.  

[RideWV]

Could you not use the bags with your upcoming new V-Strom?

James

[Emerson00]

  on the ST3 - it's on the really short list if I get to where I can afford a new bike; indeed, it's nearly the only bike on the list.

I only wish I could've gotten a better deal on an ST4 when I bought the Multi. as it is, I'm in a hurry to fakle the MTS real quick as it looks like I'm riding it to California and back July 30.  

(unless, of course, you really do want a Multi... perhaps I'd know where you could get a good one   )


Congrats on the new bike, and I'm glad to hear Holly is doing well (so thanks for the update).

[DNA]

  on the ST3 - it's on the really short list if I get to where I can afford a new bike; indeed, it's nearly the only bike on the list.

I only wish I could've gotten a better deal on an ST4 when I bought the Multi. as it is, I'm in a hurry to fakle the MTS real quick as it looks like I'm riding it to California and back July 30.  

(unless, of course, you really do want a Multi... perhaps I'd know where you could get a good one   )


Congrats on the new bike, and I'm glad to hear Holly is doing well (so thanks for the update).

Isn't that bike currently wanted?  
"Good deal black sport bike - slightly scuffed on the rear.
Highly sought after."

Sounds like a great ride.
Farkle away.

[tankhead]

Holly and Scott,
I am just reading this for the first time.    I am soo sorry for the loss of the Duc and your fracture of the cervical spine.  I can't believe I did not see this until 5:00am this morning.  I am glad to see that you are ok and that you are the new owner of the ST3.  Let's try and meet up this summer.  I would love to ride the Route 26 loop that you have posted up.  If you guys are up for the Cape May thing you have a room, private bathroom, pool at your leisure. Let me know.
Chris

[SWriverstone]

Hi Chris---good to hear from you, and thanks for the well wishes (and for the offer of a place to stay). Yes, we'll definitely have to get together for a ride, and we'll definitely take you up on your offer to come up there---I really want to see Cape May!

We're both still mourning the loss of the 748...but that will all be over this weekend, when Holly picks up the new ST3.   I'm sure that will really help Holly's "mental recovery."  

Scott

[DigST]

Sucks, being out of town sooo much, I miss these things. First, great to here all are doing fine. Second sorry to here of your loss, third congrats on the NEW addition, fourth this weekend I'll be in town if you guys want any help breaking in the the ST3, that if Holly can stand the whirling sound of the Jetson mobile:)
PS- The massage therapist at the Golds Gym in town works wonders on the ol' spine..pass it on!

[SWriverstone]

Hi DigST---do we know you?   (I can't remember if we've swapped private messages already---my apologies if we did and I've forgotten!)

Good tip on the massage therapist at Gold's Gym---I might have to send Holly up there! Looks like we might be putting a ride together for the weekend...stay tuned!

Scott

[DigST]

Haven't gotten a chance to ride w/ you guys yet, I live out at Summit Point, yeah swapped a PM or two. But working two jobs, and one of them like to take me out of town all the time, seems like I barely ever get a chance to ride.
Anthony