Post ESTN accident report.

[Hickey]

I'm glad to hear that you guys are OK.  The bikes can be repaired or replaced.  You guys on the other hand cannot be replaced.  

[DataDan]

A sort of tangential lesson is the difficulty of perceiving closing speed when motion is along the line of sight. This is called Motion Camouflage, and it's exactly what befuddles a cager who turns left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. Except the effect is amplified in that case because the motorcycle presents such a small profile to the observer. Thus, the "looming effect", whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size, occurs when the motorcycle is closer to the cager than you were to the pickup.

[SWriverstone]

A sort of tangential lesson is the difficulty of perceiving closing speed when motion is along the line of sight. This is called Motion Camouflage, and it's exactly what befuddles a cager who turns left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. Except the effect is amplified in that case because the motorcycle presents such a small profile to the observer. Thus, the "looming effect", whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size, occurs when the motorcycle is closer to the cager than you were to the pickup.

Great link DataDan. I definitely experienced this, because no matter how hard I try to reconstruct the moments before the accident in my mind, all I remember is one thing: the truck ahead was at a safe distance...and suddenly I was RUSHING up to it. It's one of those things that seems impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced it (e.g. "Aww c'mon! You mean you didn't notice the truck was stopped???") No! I didn't notice--and I was looking straight at it!! It just suddenly loomed very large in my field of view, and I found myself in an "oh-sh*t" moment.

Scott

[RideWV]

One word..."bummer".  Heal fast and don't let it shake your enthusiasm for motorcycling.

I'd say there's a good chance the truck guy knew it was illegal in some way or other, probably knew about the brakes.  Some old cars, especially, have really hard to see brake lights in direct sun as well.

James

PS. You could consider making the Duc a dedicated track bike and just leave the cosmetic stuff as is.  Then you could maybe buy something more ADV-ish or LD-ish if you're looking for a change, and have the best of both worlds.  But, then I turn everything in to an excuse to bike shop, lol.

[Yankee Dog]

from the descriptions it doesnt sound like ABS would have helped.  I have never triggered my ABS (I suppose I should just for practice) but from what I understand there is no mistaking it when it happens.  Anyway if SWstone had stopped any quicker then Holly would only have hit him harder/sooner.  

I am not sure it would have helped Holly either.  If your back end is up in the air then you are pretty much at maximum braking.  The front tire wasnt sliding so the ABS would not have kicked in.  Holly's problem wasnt her inabilty to perform an emergency stop, I dont think anyone could do better.  Her problem was caused by following too closely.  In my opinion most riders in a group follow too closely.  

Maybe she would have been better served by doing an avoidance swerve.  

Yankee Dog

[SWriverstone]

You make a good point Yankee Dog. Still, I've ridden Holly's bike a lot, and I know her Brembo front brake is wicked-powerful. you breath on that lever and it stops the bike at any speed! I can't help thinking if I had grabbed Holly's front brake as hard as I grabbed the VFR's ABS front brake, I'd have gone sailing through that truck's rear windshield!

Scott

[Yankee Dog]

My point exactly, the fact that she didnt do an endo is attest to her braking skills.  

YD

[kam]

OUCH!  That is a nasty little fracture.  

Hope you heal up soon.

[kendenton]

 

Glad to hear everyone's OK.  

[hobbes]

Sorry to hear of this. I'm glad Holly's and you are ok.

[MK96xj]

Holly,

Well done. You skill prevented much worse. Heal well and soon.

Sorry to see the Duc bruised like that. I was admiring it all weekend.

Mike

[kendenton]

As to your question, no---all I remember was squeezing the front brake HARD...and coming to a fast, controlled, smooth stop. I never lost control of the bike, never felt a tire skid or slip, nothing. And I was steering for the shoulder at the same time I was squeezing with all my might.

So I give all the credit to ABS doing its job!  

Scott

Even before I read your post ABS is on my must-have list for the next bike.  You can argue that it won't necessarily shorten your stopping distance, but it's nice to know you can just grab it as hard as you can as quick as you can with no dire consequences.  No modulation to really worry about, no getting to threshold braking, just BRAKE NOW.  I'm sure there are some circumstances where ABS might not be the best solution, but for 99% of the situations out there having instantly available maximum braking is a good thing.

[SWriverstone]

Even before I read your post ABS is on my must-have list for the next bike.  You can argue that it won't necessarily shorten your stopping distance, but it's nice to know you can just grab it as hard as you can as quick as you can with no dire consequences.  No modulation to really worry about, no getting to threshold braking, just BRAKE NOW.  I'm sure there are some circumstances where ABS might not be the best solution, but for 99% of the situations out there having instantly available maximum braking is a good thing.

Yeah, that's my feeling exactly Ken. I mean, to effectively use traditional brakes in a one-second emergency "your life is on the line" stop, you've got to spend HUGE amounts of time practicing hard stops in a parking lot (so proper modulation becomes second-nature). My guess is that 99.9% of motorcyclists don't have "traditional brake modulation" in their bloodstream that thoroughly (even though many think they do!).

I'm not taking away from what Holly did---as I said earlier, had it been me on the Duc I would've grabbed a fistful and gone through that truck's windshield!

But yes...anything that lets you simply REACT with split-second timing and considerable force is a good thing!

Scott

[RideWV]

I agree with Yankee Dog that in this case, for Holly, ABS may not have helped since she didn't lock up or endo (good job Holly).  For Swriverstone it may have given him the opportunity to point the bike toward the grass while braking as hard as he could.  My last bike had the original BMW ABS brakes and they worked but were crude and you could definitely tell when they kicked in but I hear the newer bikes are much smoother so maybe they were activated and he didn't feel it.

It sounds to me she was braking as hard as that bike would allow and just didn't have enough room.  Her bike has a short wheelbase and fairly high center of gravity which work against it for maximum braking potential when there is more than enough traction.  This effect is exaggerated during a panic stop because you don't have the time to shift weight toward the back of the bike.

James

[SuperHans]

Holly's problem wasn't her inability to perform an emergency stop, I don't think anyone could do better. Her problem was caused by following too closely. In my opinion most riders in a group follow too closely.

I pretty much agree with this statement. I don't think Holly or anyone else could have done any better of a job at braking under the circumstances. I witnessed the whole thing up close and was quite impressed with the fact she was still modulating the brake with the rear of the bike that high in the air. In a panic situation many people just couldn't do that.

I do think she had been following a little too closely though. Holly, I mean that as constructive criticism and not an insult. I know at times I had been following too closely over the weekend also. I just happened to be far enough back at that moment.

I will say that it is possible that ABS may have helped although I can't say for sure. I do know Holly would have been unable to put the rear of the bike in the air had her bike been ABS equipped. If both wheels would have been on the ground she may then have been able to perform an avoidance maneuver of some type. This is just speculation of course, we will never really know.

[SWriverstone]

I agree with Yankee Dog that in this case, for Holly, ABS may not have helped since she didn't lock up or endo (good job Holly).

Not arguing with you James---it's all good! :-) But Holly *did* endo---she almost (or did, we're not 100% sure) flipped the bike over the front tire. Though she did a great job trying to modulate the brake, as Eric said, her rear tire did come WAY off the ground. That's just bad news in an emergency situation any way you look at it (unless you're the world's best stunta).

So I guess my point is that---while we'll never know what would have happened to Holly if she had ABS brakes---it's logical to assume her rear tire would not have lifted, which in turn would likely have given her more control. Hence my feeling about ABS:     IMO, in an emergency, two tires on the ground are always better than one tire in the air!

Scott

[VIVID1]

Wow, I'm glad everyone is OK. Rick will cry when he reads the 748 is now crunchy, he loves that bike. Good luck making it all pretty again and ride safe y'all   Hope to ride with you guys soon!

[RideWV]

No worries Scott,

I realized she stoppied but didn't know she endo's.  Still if she hit the other bike before she endo's then it doesn't really matter.

If ABS kicks in because the rear wheel is off the ground or that the bike has changed angle in relationship to the ground,  then it probably would have helped her some.  Do they work that way?  I really don't know.  If not, they should.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a big ABS fan.

James

[Mr Sunshine]

Good question BSD. First, I should emphasize that it never occurred to me for a second to use the rear brake too. That's what we're taught in MSF (use both), but when the sh*t hit the fan, all I thought about was the front brake! Maybe I don't have enough training at emergency stops (using both), and for all I know, I might have stomped the rear too?

As to your question, no---all I remember was squeezing the front brake HARD...and coming to a fast, controlled, smooth stop. I never lost control of the bike, never felt a tire skid or slip, nothing. And I was steering for the shoulder at the same time I was squeezing with all my might.

So I give all the credit to ABS doing its job!  

Scott

As a frame of reference.  On my 2002 VFR when I was doing braking drills in the ERC the only reason I knew the ABS kicked in is because I could hear my rear tire skipping and the brake lever just went wooden.  So you won't feel anything in the brake lever when it kicks in.  Same feeling on my BMW R1150RT.

[SuperHans]

I realized she stoppied but didn't know she endo's.  Still if she hit the other bike before she endo's then it doesn't really matter.

She definitely did a stoppie. I'm not sure if the endo was a result of making contact with Scott or overbraking. The contact she made with Scott's bike was brief and light. Scott's bike sustained no damage from the contact so that shows how minimal the contact was.

I doubt an ABS equipped bike will stoppie. At least I've never heard of this happening on a bike with properly functioning ABS. Anybody have information proving otherwise?