Post ESTN accident report.

[SuperHans]

Rick will cry when he reads the 748 is now crunchy, he loves that bike.

It is one beautiful bike. One of my favorite Duc's.

[Mostrogirl]

Glad to hear that you two are OK!!  Ride safe and see you soon!

[kendenton]

It is one beautiful bike. One of my favorite Duc's.

Amen, brother.  I met Holly at the Meet and Eat, and was almost embarassed to park my Multi next to her 748.  Hard to believe the same company put out both designs.

[DogBoy]

Glad it wasn't worse.

You mentioned not even thinking about the rear brake which is odd because I believe your VFR has linked brakes (Hona's term is LBS) and my understanding is the rear brake is working even when you just use the front brake lever. Isn't that the case?

I had something similar happen within a month of when I first started riding. I was following a van too closely. It had no brake lights and I panicked and stabbed the rear brake and dropped the bike at about 5 mph. All my fault as I was following too closely. I haven't trusted brake lights ever since. Its odd. I probably see one car every week, even new models, where the brake lights do not work.

[Mr Sunshine]

A sort of tangential lesson is the difficulty of perceiving closing speed when motion is along the line of sight. This is called Motion Camouflage, and it's exactly what befuddles a cager who turns left in front of an oncoming motorcycle. Except the effect is amplified in that case because the motorcycle presents such a small profile to the observer. Thus, the "looming effect", whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size, occurs when the motorcycle is closer to the cager than you were to the pickup.

Interesting.  I experienced this to some degree this past Saturday when I came in to pit during my endurance race.  Two things really helped me out in guaging distance.

1.  I knew they were stopped (the people standing in the pit which I had to aim for  )
2.  The team manager was waving his hand up and down in a "slow down" motion.  This really allowed me to figure out my distance much better.

[BlueRidgeKat]

I doubt an ABS equipped bike will stoppie. At least I've never heard of this happening on a bike with properly functioning ABS. Anybody have information proving otherwise?

I would like to see some info on this as well. I was thinking the same thing.... you cant do a stoppie with ABS.
Actually what good is ABS if you have to modulate to keep from doing a endo before the ABS kicks in. If thats the case then ABS would never ever kick in unless you already have the front wheel locked while sliding on sand or in gravel. ABS does not work on dry grippy pavement ? ? You grab a handful of front brake thinking the ABS will kick in and you will maintain control but instead you go flying over the handlebars ? ? ?
Obviously there is alot I dont understand about ABS.

[Holly]

With regard to following distance...

Couldn't agree more.... I should maintain a greater following distance. when I'm on my bike  I was trying to instill a new "greater following distance" habbit this weekend due to some observations I'd made about myself recently.  Alas.... new habbits are hard to make and I was still following too closely leading up to this accident.  Like I said on my personal blog.. "Accident postmortem: Though my riding partners and I all believe the proximate cause of the accident was the rapid deceleration of the vehicles in front of us and the apparent lack of brake lights on the truck in front of us, I certainly would have been in a better position to safely come to a stop if I maintained a greater following distance from my riding partners."

[stefrrr]

Glad to hear you're all right Holly. Want to join the ESTN "Crash kids" club?  

[SWriverstone]

You mentioned not even thinking about the rear brake which is odd because I believe your VFR has linked brakes (Hona's term is LBS) and my understanding is the rear brake is working even when you just use the front brake lever. Isn't that the case?

Yes, the VFR has linked brakes. My understanding is the "linked" part doesn't apply them equally---if you apply front only, you get 100% front plus something like 25-50% rear and vice-versa (but someone might have more specific info on this?).

As for ABS preventing stoppies and endos, I agree--what's the point of ABS if your rear takes flight? Again, I only know I squeezed that front brake very hard and very fast, and my bike was rock-solid, stayed on the ground, and stopped pretty danged fast! I don't remember feeling anything unusual (e.g. no pumping, skipping tires, nothing---just deceleration).

Scott

[awlittle]

I imagine any modern ABS system communicates to a central micro processor that compares wheel spin, not only from individual wheels, but in comparison between the wheels as well and therefore the computer would sense the rear wheel was free spinning or locked and would adjust front braking to prevent the rear wheel leaving the pavement for any substantial period of time.
Just a guess, but  I ASSume no company would be foolish enough to put an ABS bike on the market capable of endo-ing.
Glad you are OK.  I agree with the post that the LBS deserves some credit.  On the Duc that very well could have prevented the accident (assuming Holly could have slowed and weaved or stopped in time).
Again, glad you are both OK.

[1TallTXn]

Glad to hear y'all walked away.  

The VFRs linked brakes are a bit different.

Applying rear brake lever only pushes 2/3 of the rear pots and 1/6 of the front (Front Left)
Applying the front brake lever only applies 5/6 of the front pots and 1/3 of the rear (center)

So to get 6/6 of the front and 3/3 on the rear, you have to use both levers at the same time

[BlueRidgeKat]

ABS does not work on dry grippy pavement ? ? You grab a handful of front brake thinking the ABS will kick in and you will maintain control but instead you go flying over the handlebars ? ? ?

Well, according to what I can get out of this link, I suppose even with ABS, unless you lock the front wheel into a slide so the ABS kicks in then the rear end can and will come up and over your windscreen you will go.

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP209.html

I have read alot of comments from you guys/girls who have ABS in which you state that you have never tried it or pushed it to that limit just to see how it works......... good for you... DONT try it.

[RideWV]

Just did some quick research on ABS stoppies...

For a stoppie to happen the front and rear wheels would have to be decelerating at the same rate to within 5% (on BMWs anyway) even while the rear wheel was off the ground.  I suppose that if you had rolled off the throttle and engine braking (or light rear brake) was slowing the rear wheel at nearly exactly the same rate as the front brake was slowing the front wheel then ABS would not kick in and you could stoppie/endo.  Obviously that's not likely.  Someday all street bikes will have ABS.

It also turns out that most ABS bikes are large, long motorcycles which would be tough to stoppie anyway.  There traditionally aren't many stoppie-friendly motorcycles with the ABS option, ironically.

James

[mch]

I'm glad to hear all involved are ok, different degrees of ok but it sure could have been much worse.

Great analysis of what happened. I think most of us tend to move too close at times when traveling in a group. And I know I have found myself closing on a vehicle at a high rate when just a nanosecond before I thought we were both at the same speed. I also don't practice my emergency braking skills near enough. Good lessons for a lot/most/all of us, I believe.

Matt

[Liquidsilver]

Kudos to all for being good friends and responsible riding buddies.  Heal well Holly!  

 
+1000!    

[FJRmgm]

glad you are ok but +1 to this ---> "Her problem was caused by following too closely.  In my opinion most riders in a group follow too closely."

I make it a point to tell others when in a group ride to stay back away from me.

[hovmaven]

Holly/Scott -- geez, I'm sitting here in Africa and I am so sorry to read of your adventure.  
Glad to hear it didn't end badly.  

Modulating from an 11:00 stoppie -- Holly, congratulations.  I wish one day to have such skill.  But, because I have a vfr abs, that is a skill I may never develop.  

FWIW -- I know all too well how good the vfr's abs linked brakes can be -- just ask DNA about our trip to Atlanta . . ..  

When you need them, they are there. The bike just sits down and stops.  No endo's, no skidding, no drama.  They just plain work.

I never leave home without them.  

Best of luck with the fix-up.  In the meantime, enjoy Scott's KLR.  

[MSL217]

I'm glad you guys are OK. I really enjoyed riding with you last year and I hope everything works out OK.

[MarcS]

Glad you all are OK!

That VFR looks kind of sexy, all crashed like that...  

[RickC1957]

Wow, I'm glad everyone is OK. Rick will cry when he reads the 748 is now crunchy, he loves that bike. Good luck making it all pretty again and ride safe y'all   Hope to ride with you guys soon!

Well I'll cry some other time for the bikes! Right now I'm glad that everyone ok and injuries are minor! The bikes can be replaced or repaired....Scott and Holly cannot! I know both will be pretty sore for the next week to 10 days (recent experience ) so just take that Aleve in the morning and evening and take it easy. 4 riders down in less than a week....everyone ride safe.....r.