The BMW anti-dive suspension - worth the cost?

[dr dralion]

I've ridden quite a few different bikes, but I always feel a bit more comfortable on BMWs (ones with the duolever and telelever) because they don't dive when I employ hard braking.  Recently, while testing a multistrada, I felt well planted (Ohlins) but still didn't enjoy the dive during braking.

What are some people's experiences / opinions about the benefits and drawbacks of the anti-dive setup?  Is it really that big of a sell / difference?  If so, why haven't many other manufacturers adopted similar geometries?

Kevin

[Sport-Touring]

[kevin_stevens]

I liked it a lot, too.  I think one huge disadvantage is that it's something you have to get used to, so for test rides and magazine reviews, they don't have the chance to get comfortable with it; common response is that the feedback is "numb".  I don't really feel it is, it's just that you can't key on the fork compression as your input.
 
KeS

[K12RS-Kerwin]

After riding the past 10 years on Beemers I wouldn't go back. I recently test rode a new bike (different brand) and was shocked about the nose dive. Shessh. I was thinking remember no telelever, no telelever and still wasn't expecting that.

[dr dralion]

Thanks for the feedback.  I find myself willing to put the money down for this stable feeling when riding / braking.  Others say I just need to get used to diving under deceleration.  For some reason I don't feel as safe when feel the bike pitch forward.

Kevin

[bizarro]

No. BMW front ends are too vague for me, the connection between the rider and the tire is severed, IMHO (owned an R1150GS). Furthermore, with regards to cost, BMWs are overpriced period. The only bike they make where the motor is really worth a large amount of money is the K12S.

[ksann]

I like it, and feel that it is different, but not vague (whas Kevin Stevens) said.

I can feel what my tires are doing, and feel that the suspension control and lack of dive is fantastic.

When I climb on my Guzzi, it takes time to get used to the dive again. Now I need to seperate the sensation of dive from braking force, and from road surface irregularities.



ken

[Lawn Dart]

Kerwin, KS, and KSANN have said everything I could say on it.  There IS plenty of feedback in the Telelever and Duo-Lever suspensions - only it doesn't come from fork compression (which is the standard).  On my GS & previously my RSL I felt it through the footpegs and the gas tank.  It's different, yes.  

To be frank, I NEVER liked fork dive.  I got used to the Telelever front end in oh, about 10 minutes.  No dive?  HELL YEAH!  I can't even begin to say how wonderful it is to me to not feel like I'm getting pitched over the front of the bike.  Another advantage (that very few will ever exploit) is that you can deep-brake a BMW stupidly hard on the street while remaining in complete control of the bike.  Lack of dive is a GOOD thing.  Still yet another advantage:  the *Lever systems separate braking forces from suspension forces from turning forces.  What this means is that you can go around a corner, nail a nasty mid-corner bump and it won't upset the steering (as much) as it would on a conventional Fork.  I've hit ruts on my RSL that would have had my old ZX11 screaming for mercy and the RSL would just plow through them with nary a headshake.

Prior to buying my GS I tried no less than 8 other bikes on test rides.  Everything from Ohlins equipped Ducs to conventional Ducs, Triumphs, a Superhawk and a few others.  Only the Ohlins equipped ST4S and MultiStrada (w/ Ohlins front) even came close to confidence I get on a BMW.  

Are BMW's overpriced?  Maybe.  I still prefer my Ohlins Telelever suspension.

[Penforhire]

I liked it for city commute riding.  Braking hard over a bump?  No problem.  But I agree with the comments of numbness.  I think it is a worthwhile tradeoff for me, not one to attack public curves so hard I need better feel.

[Mr Sunshine]

+1million to liking the telelever front end.

[WBill]

Anybody ever ride an old "slash-two" with Earles forks?  Grab-a-handfull of front brake on one of those, and the front end goes UP!  Cool.

[hass]

If the front end feels vague with telelever it is usually fixed by winding up the rear preload. I love the antidive on BMWs and have a hard time when test riding other bikes.

The Telelever on my R12R dives a little bit more than the Duolever on my old K12S which took me a couple of days to get used to!

[garry]

All I've done are test rides, but the front end feels vague and disconnected IMO. The R1200 engine is boring and they're ugly too. And overly technical (more weird crap to go wrong). Can't say there's a single BMW that I'd want to own, regardless of price. Just don't find them interesting in the least.

I have no problems with front end dive on a properly sprung motorcycle. Springs and fork oil are cheap.

[BobW]

+1 WBill, as well as others long gone now. Leading link was modified/developed by an English gentleman name of Earle as the duolever was by Hossack. Most folks here should enjoy a trip to a motorcycle museum (cars, tractors as well) to see some of the older designs and engineering that came about "pre CAD" and are just beautiful compared to some of stuff we buy today. I would guess cost/weight is more with these suspensions as a big part of why they aren't more widely used (side car was one original intended application). BMW is smart to use them as they are excellent IMHO, but they didn't give birth to the design.

Cheers
Bob  

[joema]

What are some people's experiences / opinions about the benefits and drawbacks of the anti-dive setup?  Is it really that big of a sell / difference?  If so, why haven't many other manufacturers adopted similar geometries?...

The Duolever front suspension on my K1200S combined with ABS lets me brake incredibly hard with good stability and confidence. On the track my main concern is getting hit from the rear by riders who I out brake.

My bike doesn't have the "pebbly" feedback of other sportbikes I've ridden, but I wouldn't call it vague. Not sure how much of that is suspension design vs other issues.

That said, telescopic front suspensions are highly developed and obviously work well. You generally get used to the unique characteristics of each bike. Cost is no object for MotoGP bikes, and they all use telescopic fronts. They're all custom-built prototypes and could easily use Duolever or anything else if it gave an advantage.

[HexHead]

I still prefer my Ohlins Telelever suspension.

Yep. It's an awesome combination.  

[MilleArp]

I love the anti-dive.  And, I have plenty of feedback, for me.  

In 2002 I took my 1999 R11S to Deals Gap for a week.  Spent most of that week riding that road.
Rear pre-load was cranked all the way up, front damping to max, rear out 1/2 turn.  
Got both tires edge-to-edge.  
Scraped up both peg feelers.  
Wore a bevel on my rear brake lever.  
Scraped BOTH jugs.  
Never crashed.  
All this with a "vague" front end.....  

When I rode a Sprint ST in 2001, that's the first thing that stood out, how much the front end dove, and how much harder that made it to steer in hard braking.

.

[DrMikey]

If the front end feels vague with telelever it is usually fixed by winding up the rear preload. I love the antidive on BMWs and have a hard time when test riding other bikes.

+

[Clive]

That said, telescopic front suspensions are highly developed and obviously work well. You generally get used to the unique characteristics of each bike. Cost is no object for MotoGP bikes, and they all use telescopic fronts. They're all custom-built prototypes and could easily use Duolever or anything else if it gave an advantage.

MotoGP bikes also are designed with a very, very narrow goal in mind.  There are probably lots of things that'd be great on street bikes that won't ever find their way onto a MotoGP race bike.  Off the top of my head, I'd say adjustability is huge for GP bikes, so they can set up each bike for each rider for each track for that day's weather.  I can see how a suspension or engine design that might yield technically better results but offer little adjustability would be shunned by MotoGP.

Not arguing, just "conversating".  

[Mr Sunshine]

One other thing...the BMW front end isn't just about anti-dive.  It also soaks up rough pavement with ease!

[Lawn Dart]

One other thing...the BMW front end isn't just about anti-dive.  It also soaks up rough pavement with ease!

Mr. Sunny is so right here.  I have this certain, perverse attaction to beat up, ugly, gnarled, potholed roads in the middle of absolute nowhere.  I'm talking about roads that see less than 100 cars a week and haven't seen any road improvements in 40 years and are furiously overgrown with weeks, cracks, and roadkill-wannabees.

There's this amazing amount of confidence watching the TLever front hammering through the corners and bumps, getting the back end slipping and loose, and never feeling like I'm out of control.  

A buddy of mine wanted to join me for such a ride - on his Gixxer 750.  By the time we were done he was rattled in a serious way.  Loose bolts on his bike, loose fillings, and a very loose mental state.

As to MotoGP and Telescopic forks - come on.  GP tracks are graced with near flawless surfaces and are designed to be highly predictable.  One reason Laguna Seca is such a challenging track is that there is a lot of elevation gain/loss (Corkscrew anyone?) and the surfaces can be more challenging.  For the most part though, the roads are nigh on perfect.  I suggest we toss some gravel into the corners...maybe a few potholes...how about some tar snakes and cracked pavement and a few pallets and 2x4's for good measure.  Let's even the odds...

Final note:  Telelever and braking:  BWAHAHAHAHAAHAH!  If you want to really experience late braking ride a boxer with Telelever!  Duolever K-S's are good, but they got NOTHING on Telelever in the braking dept.!  Slam the brakes, hit the ABS, fly into a corner at an obscene speed and the bike is as composed as can be.

Love it!