National health care outside the US

[KenH]

Is it in the plan that we would extend the benefits to people here illegally? I haven't heard that. We also take care of these folks now in our ER's.

james

I have no idea what is in the plan. I object to socialized medicine because I object to government interference in free market economics, not to giving a shit about your neighbor that would rather spend money on crack and chrome wheels for his SUV than health insurance. Yes, we do take care of illegals under the current system. I doubt that will change. However, we used to garauntee their 0% down ARM mortgages, too, but we don't do that anymore, so who knows?

Against The Wind, Americans do care about their neighbors, and we don't have to have government policies to force us to do so like the selfish Canadians do.

[Sport-Touring]

[Mr. Whippy]

Take the cost of all "broken bones", divide by the number of said treatments, your average cost is still higher than that of Canada.  The study I saw was about the COST of each treatment, not the amount the patient was billed,  hence your statement doesn't matter as the free treatments still cost something, and are accounted for.

Nice try though.

Try again, reading for comprehension.  Critical point is bolded and enlarged for the slow.

1.  We pay more per person per year on health insurance than any other equivalent nation and have worse health outcomes.

Get it?  The two may be true statements, but as written, it implies a connection which I challenge as fallacious.

[atypical1]

I have no idea what is in the plan. I object to socialized medicine because I object to government interference in free market economics,

How can you make an intelligent decision and how can you have an intelligent conversation without knowing what's in the plan? How do you know it's socialized medicine? Simply because Raj says so?

james

[KenH]

How can you make an intelligent decision and how can you have an intelligent conversation without knowing what's in the plan? How do you know it's socialized medicine? Simply because Raj says so?

james

I don't need to read "The plan." I am not against "The Plan", but against excessive government intrusion into free markets. Medical care is products and services, and like any other products and services, their costs, availabilities, and developments should be determined by a free market. Therefore, I would be against "The Plan" no matter its content because it is government interference in a free market economy.

Have you read the plan? I didn't think so. STFU

[atypical1]

I don't need to read "The plan." I am not against "The Plan", but against excessive government intrusion into free markets. Medical care is products and services, and like any other products and services, their costs, availabilities, and developments should be determined by a free market. Therefore, I would be against "The Plan" no matter its content because it is government interference in a free market economy.

Have you read the plan? I didn't think so. STFU

Yes Ken. I have read it on the website dedicated to it.

We don't live in a true free market economy and if you think we do you're sadly mistaken.

You're very closed minded for a former educator.

james

[The Shepherd]

I don't need to read "The plan." I am not against "The Plan", but against excessive government intrusion into free markets. Medical care is products and services, and like any other products and services, their costs, availabilities, and developments should be determined by a free market.

So, you deem it ethical to make a profit off of the sickness of others?

[Baz]

I have no idea what is in the plan. I object to socialized medicine because I object to government interference in free market economics, not to giving a shit about your neighbor that would rather spend money on crack and chrome wheels for his SUV than health insurance. Yes, we do take care of illegals under the current system. I doubt that will change. However, we used to garauntee their 0% down ARM mortgages, too, but we don't do that anymore, so who knows?

Against The Wind, Americans do care about their neighbors, and we don't have to have government policies to force us to do so like the selfish Canadians do.

Ken:

What about the 15% of American's who are unemployed right now and have been cut off, and can't afford to buy health care? Are these folks buying crack & mag wheels too?

I take it you have never been down and out? I don't wish bad on anyone, but I don't think you grasp the struggle that a lot of people are going through.

To state that anyone without health care in the USA is buying crack and mag wheels is just stupid. I guess you are telling us that the estimated 25% of Americans without access to health care are buying crack & mag wheels?

Wow, with 25% of the population of the USA buying mag wheels (75 million) you would think that everyone would be working, building mag wheels or in crack factories. I guess you are going to blame China or maybe Canada now for stealing those jobs too?

And Ken, making sure everyone gets equal Health care coverage is not what I would call selfish.

[KenH]

So, you deem it ethical to make a profit off of the sickness of others?

Yes. I think it unethical to prevent anyone from making a profit of the products they sell/create.

Yes Ken. I have read it on the website dedicated to it.

We don't live in a true free market economy and if you think we do you're sadly mistaken.

You're very closed minded for a former educator.

james

You have read all 1000 pages? In their entirety?

I never claimed we live in a free market economy. You are an idiot for thinking I did.

You are very stupid for a supposed college graduate. Now come up with another way to make your same invalid point like you usually do. Attempting to engage in a discussion with you is like talking to a parrot with 6 sound bites--your beak is moving, noise comes out, but you have no idea what you are saying.

Ken:

What about the 15% of American's who are unemployed right now and have been cut off, and can't afford to buy health care? ...

Since nobody in the U. S. of A. has been cut off, and the fact I have personally pointed out to you twice, and you still spew such lies, I did not even bother reading the rest of your rant because you have totally destroyed your own credibility.

[Baz]

Since nobody in the U. S. of A. has been cut off, and the fact I have personally pointed out to you twice, and you still spew such lies, I did not even bother reading the rest of your rant because you have totally destroyed your own credibility.
 
  
 

Ummmm, Ken, have I missed something?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121820/one-six-adults-without-health-insurance.aspx



So Ken, you are suggesting that when an American looses his job, he continues to enjoy the same health care coverage that his/her employer provided? (Not the ones I know)

Geese, I worked for an American employer who canned your health care coverage the same day they canned the employee. Yes, the employee had the option of carrying on his/her coverage for a while provided they could afford it, but seeing how their income was reduced to whatever unemployment they could collect, that at most times was pretty difficult.

Another thing Ken, have you seen what sort of profit's those people you speak of have been making? There is profit, and then there is robbery.

[et]

Yes. I think it unethical to prevent anyone from making a profit of the products they sell/create.



You have read all 1000 pages? In their entirety?

I never claimed we live in a free market economy. You are an idiot for thinking I did.

You are very stupid for a supposed college graduate. Now come up with another way to make your same invalid point like you usually do. Attempting to engage in a discussion with you is like talking to a parrot with 6 sound bites--your beak is moving, noise comes out, but you have no idea what you are saying.



Since nobody in the U. S. of A. has been cut off, and the fact I have personally pointed out to you twice, and you still spew such lies, I did not even bother reading the rest of your rant because you have totally destroyed your own credibility.

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly because it's early and I'm still a little groggy.
BUT I take offense to your statement. I have been cut off !
I guess that means my name is nobody.

I became unemployed late August 2008. The health insurance that came with that job ended immediately. And I could not afford CORBA; it was $600 per month !
(And no; I have not been buying any crack or mag wheels. I have only been responsibly paying my living expenses. Such as mortgage, car insurance, phone, electric, groceries, etc ...)
So my only option was to get temporary health insurance. In October 2008 the only employment I could find was a 6-month contract-to-hire position. January 2, 2009 I woke up with blurry vision; I couldn't see more than a few inches past my nose. I spent 4 days in the hospital. 2-1/2 of those days I was in ICU. I was diagnosed as diabetic. Of course that 6-month contract mysteriously ended 3-months early the week following my hospital stay.
The temporary health insurance at first refused to pay all the related bills because they said the diabetes had to be a preexisting condition; even though there was nothing in my medical history.
(I've since learned that this insurance company is in hundreds (or was it thousands) of "bad faith" claim denials court cases. And it is being investigated by 15 states.)
I had to consult with a lawyer; who instructed me how to respond to all their letters. Eventually; 4 months later; the insurance agreed to start paying. But due to being unemployed; I have not been able to pay the deductable in full. And due to this my doctor has refused to give me some tests. And since those tests are not for my immediate survival; I can not get them at and Emergency Room.
Also; since I now have a preexisting condition. No insurance company will accept me as a customer. AND I am too young to be accepted by Medicaid/Medicare.
So come this September 1st; I will have no health coverage.

So do not say "nobody in the U. S. of A. has been cut off".

--ET

[Against The Wind]

...we don't have to have government policies to force us to do so like the selfish Canadians do.

We live in a Democracy. The government did not force us to accept health care. We told them to do it.

[PirateT7]

Since nobody in the U. S. of A. has been cut off

A friend of mine has a daughter in her early twenties, with a child, a part-time job (which does not provide health benefits), and is trying to get herself set up on her own. Since she just turned 24 (or is it 25, I don't recall exactly), the insurance company says she can no longer be on her father's policy. So she calls the insurance company and asks how much the same coverage would be for her to purchase as her own policy. And guess what...  They deny her coverage - the same coverage they've been providing for the past 20+ years - because of a "pre-existing condition." They don't just raise the rates, they refuse to cover her at all!

[BradleyRas]

The real problem at hand is the GREED on behalf of the medical & drug companies who are raping insurance companies who inturn rape the people...

I know a guy who is the CEO of a hospital in Naples Fl and he pretty much plays golf, putts around on his gigantic boat or drives his mercedes s500 from fancy restaurant to fancy restaurant.

I wonder when the sheeple of the us will wake up and demand health care REFORM not socialized medicine which will only feed the greed in the medical business.

Why does nobody talk about the inflated cost and incredible profits the CEOs are making at the expense of others???

[shah269]

OK I'm not going to read 6 pages and I'm a liberal SOB, I work for the feds and I'm scared stuff about government run health care.
Here is why, I have a multimillion dollar contract on the table that is about 6 months late to be awarded and this morning I got this email....and please do your best not to laugh too hard remember empowered art history majors work for the fed.....

I noticed in various location you indicated CAT-I, CAT-II and CAT-III with respect to the materials being utilized. What does CAT stand for?

I a jerk bag almost replied
1) CAT.....a small fuzzy animal of no real use in my house?
2) CAT.....Caught A Tick
3) CAT....short for CATegory

There was also another email that read....and boys I SHIT YOU NOT!

I noticed on the address line you indicated Spring Field dr. our computer don't like abbreviations sine they could represent many values can you please staff the document so as to eliminate any acronyms.

My inner Bender almost came out on this one and my boss had to hold me back I was ready to politely tell the nice people in our contracting / procurement office that dr has stood for drive for a few decades now and that in the morning when cleaning out their ears with q tips they should stop when they feel pressure. We as a nation can't go on if they were to accidentally lose any more brain cells.

Now these are just contracts. Could you imagine this shit happening when I was about to go into the OR (oooops I mean operating room…sorry contracting/ procurement).
“sorry sir we can’t put you under because you used dr. and well I forgot to spell out all the acronyms associated with this procedure!”

It would work everywhere but here, and do you know why? Simple, we go out of my way to hire from the bottom of the barrel!

[TuffguyF4i]

I wonder how long the health care system in Canada would last if benefits were extended to 10,000,000 Mexicans who entered the country illegally?

40,000,000 is more accurate.  

We had 10M back in 2000.

[rajflyboy]

I don't need to read "The plan." I am not against "The Plan", but against excessive government intrusion into free markets. Medical care is products and services, and like any other products and services, their costs, availabilities, and developments should be determined by a free market. Therefore, I would be against "The Plan" no matter its content because it is government interference in a free market economy.

Have you read the plan? I didn't think so. STFU

 

[rajflyboy]

A friend of mine has a daughter in her early twenties, with a child, a part-time job (which does not provide health benefits), and is trying to get herself set up on her own. Since she just turned 24 (or is it 25, I don't recall exactly), the insurance company says she can no longer be on her father's policy. So she calls the insurance company and asks how much the same coverage would be for her to purchase as her own policy. And guess what...  They deny her coverage - the same coverage they've been providing for the past 20+ years - because of a "pre-existing condition." They don't just raise the rates, they refuse to cover her at all!

This "Pre Condition" stuff the insurance companies play is total BS and something that needs fixed.  

But that doesn't mean that we have to go to Socialized healthcare to fix this!

[Black Ice]

I know a guy who is the CEO of a hospital in Naples Fl and he pretty much plays golf, putts around on his gigantic boat or drives his mercedes s500 from fancy restaurant to fancy restaurant.

I wonder when the sheeple of the us will wake up and demand health care REFORM not socialized medicine which will only feed the greed in the medical business.

Why does nobody talk about the inflated cost and incredible profits the CEOs are making at the expense of others???

Hmm...I thought when .gov forced HMO's on us, it was going to lead to lower costs.  Or when they forced wage and price controls on us back in the '70s, thus causing companies to make health insurance a benefit of employment and effectively gutting private insurance as a viable option.

Could it be that government interference has led to the inefficiency and skyrocketing costs of insurance today?    Nah.  Couldn't be.  

Anyway, on topic, here's something to chew on that also points out a major difference in mindset between us and the rest of the world...

"The government cannot provide you with health care directly, it can only take someone’s money and pay some doctor or pharmacist to do the job. "

[Against The Wind]

In 2008 Canada received 9,400 claims for refugee status from Mexicans. There has been a significant increase due in part to the Mexican government cracking down on the drug cartels and the response of the cartels has been a massive increase in violence. The Mexican government can't protect their own citizens. Can you blame any human being for trying to get out of that mess? If it was me I'd do WHATEVER it took to try and get my family to anyplace where there was a chance of living in a safe society. I feel sorry for the poor buggers.

[et]

Hmm...I thought when .gov forced HMO's on us, it was going to lead to lower costs.  Or when they forced wage and price controls on us back in the '70s, thus causing companies to make health insurance a benefit of employment and effectively gutting private insurance as a viable option.

Could it be that government interference has led to the inefficiency and skyrocketing costs of insurance today?    Nah.  Couldn't be.  

Anyway, on topic, here's something to chew on that also points out a major difference in mindset between us and the rest of the world...

"The government cannot provide you with health care directly, it can only take someone’s money and pay some doctor or pharmacist to do the job. "

government interference is the same as unions. They both only get created once the original entity through their own greed/corruption has totally screwed up the situation.

Unions only get created once an employer has screwed over the employees.
Government gets involved when some entity (is industry what I mean ?) has screwed over citizens.