Sport-Touring.Net

The Open Road => Motorcycle Polls => Topic started by: UFO on August 15, 2007, 03:15:59 pm



Title: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 15, 2007, 03:15:59 pm
The poll to end all polls. :lol:

Everyone likes to talk about what they think makes the perfect sport-touring bike.  Here's your chance.

Make your votes, but please only vote once in each category.  Please vote the combinations you ACTUALLY like to see on a bike, regardless of what you currently own.  If it happens to match what you own, great.  But try not to let what you currently own bias your choices.  There are 43 categories.  The poll will not let you vote more than that.  So only pick one from each category.

I tried to think of as many relevent options as possible.  If something isn't covered in the poll choices, post it below.  I can added choices to the poll if some good ones come up.

Keep in mind that you can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to design.  Options cost money.  Options cost weight.  Try to make logical choices.  You can't have a 1400cc bike with a huge tank and tons of options weigh 500lbs wet.

A horsepower/torque option isn't given.  It's assumed that's baked into the displacement choice, and that the bikes are tuned for performance and not greatly neutered.

Have fun!  Maybe some lurkers will find this information useful.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: bubba zanetti on August 15, 2007, 03:22:42 pm
The poll to start all trolls??  :twofinger:

That was fun ...  :thumbsup:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: desert_rider on August 15, 2007, 03:33:38 pm
I skipped engine config. - I don't care as long as the engine is solid and has an appropriate amount of power.  Also - I love old school analog guages, but wouldn't mind a digital trip computer.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Stray Cat on August 15, 2007, 03:39:31 pm
Hey Skip, are you going to send the results off to Honda?   ;)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 15, 2007, 04:00:19 pm
I added an option at the end about Load Capacity.  The reason ST bikes are on the porky side is because one of the main design requirements is that they handle 2 up touring.  Personally the only stuff I ever haul around is myself and what's in the bags.  Removing a 2 up type requirement (if it isn't agains some DOT rule  :rolleyes: ) would lighten these bikes up considerably.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: jude on August 15, 2007, 04:21:58 pm

 You can't have a 1400cc bike with a huge tank and tons of options weigh 500lbs wet.


Yes, yes you can.  

Quote
"I want to say one word to you. Just one word."
"Yes, sir."
"Are you listening?"
"Yes, I am."
"Plastics."


The power to weight ratio of an F1 car is about 1.784 lbs/HP (current stats, full FIA spec and weight [wet with driver]).  750 HP, 1338 lbs.  The car is mostly 'plastic'.

My FJR has a PWR of 5.55, fully fueled with rider.  145HP, 805 lbs.  The bike is mostly 'metal'.

I you take the same 145 HP and use the PWR of the F1 car, the finished weight would be just 258.68 lbs!  That leaves another 240 lbs. for 'options'!

I'm just sayin'...


 :D


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 15, 2007, 04:29:18 pm
Fair point.  But we have to live in a world of every day and all day reliability, inexpensive high volume manufacturing...and lawyers.

But you make a good point.  Some of these bikes are so over designed it's kind of comical.  All for the sake of uber reliability and law suits.  The FJR frame for example.  It ludicrous how big it is. :lol:

I see some people are being optimistic with their weight requirments vs. options. :D


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: jude on August 15, 2007, 05:03:02 pm
Fair point.  But we have to live in a world of every day and all day reliability, inexpensive high volume manufacturing...and lawyers.

But you make a good point.  Some of these bikes are so over designed it's kind of comical.  All for the sake of uber reliability and law suits.  The FJR frame for example.  It ludicrous how big it is. :lol:

I see some people are being optimistic with their weight requirments vs. options. :D

Mass production would handle the costs, but certainly not the lawyers.  And yes, the FJR's frame is massively overdone.  The plus side is that it is very hard to hurt the damn thing.  I know of several, documented multi-crashed FJR's that are still straight and on the road.

As for the optimism...  A guy can dream, can't he?


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on August 15, 2007, 05:43:41 pm
This poll is flawed!  Nothing below 750ccs exists?  I think a FI V2 or V4 500cc would be perfect.  I'd gladly take a VFR400.  Then again, I think most of you must pack luggage that weighs more than I do.  


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: desert_rider on August 15, 2007, 05:48:13 pm

  Then again, I think most of you must pack luggage that weighs more than I do.  


With me it's not luggage that weighs a lot - it's me!  :lol:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Yankee Dog on August 15, 2007, 06:10:47 pm

..................The reason ST bikes are on the porky side is because one of the main design requirements is that they handle 2 up touring.  ..............


I disagree.  My beemer is lighter than  both the ST and FJR1300 and the load capacity is way more.  

I do agree that the manuafactures are building way more farkles into a bike than I would prefer.  Look that the new Connie.  It got a tire pressure monitor for cryin out loud.  

My only real priorites are decent light weight, decent HP, ABS, and removeable luggage.  However since all of my touring is two up the missus will insist on comfortable ergos as well.  

Yankee Dog



Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: vitaminC on August 15, 2007, 06:21:55 pm

This poll is flawed!  Nothing below 750ccs exists?  I think a FI V2 or V4 500cc would be perfect.  I'd gladly take a VFR400.  Then again, I think most of you must pack luggage that weighs more than I do.  


+1 But then look what we're currently riding!  :lol:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 15, 2007, 06:22:28 pm


I disagree.  My beemer is lighter than  both the ST and FJR1300 and the load capacity is way more.  


In general my statement is correct.  Design a specific bike for solo riding vs. the same bike for 2 up riding and the solo version will be lighter due to less structure being required for the extra load capacity.  I wasn't saying a lighter bike Y can't carry more than a heavier bike X that were designed by different teams and companies using different requirements.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: highside on August 15, 2007, 07:41:43 pm
So I wound up with a sub500lb 1000cc V-twin with belt drive, a smallish windscreen, USD fully adjustable forks, and removable hardbags, set up for one-up touring.

Basically, this with a curvey cafe type fairing (with a relatively tall windscreen) and a set of hard bags with very subtle racks that arent too hideous whithout the bags mounted, and a belt drive.

(http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11108313/2005_Ducati_GT1000.jpg)

I'd honestly pay 12K or so for that, which is pretty reasonable, I think. That would accomplish everything that I have ever asked from a motorcycle. EDIT: I'd really like a 20K+ mile valve interval too.

Yeah, I know a Vstrom is actually closer to what I asked for and is readily available for a song, but your silly list didn't present a box for "not horribly ugly" or I woulda checked it, twice.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 15, 2007, 07:52:56 pm

Yeah, I know a Vstrom is actually closer to what I asked for and is readily available for a song, but your silly list didn't present a box for "not horribly ugly" or I woulda checked it, twice.


It's a given that it shouldn't be fugly. :D  But we know that's not always the case. :crazy:

BTW, some interesting information gathered already. :bigok:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Mookie on August 15, 2007, 07:58:45 pm
NO BLINKERZZ!


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: highside on August 15, 2007, 07:59:12 pm



It's a given that it shouldn't be fugly. :D  But we know that's not always the case. :crazy:


It seems that when a bike is clinically designed soley for its versatility or ability, that you often end up with something really ugly. I think a bike should be purchased with a little emotion involved, and that the best results are achieved when they are designed with a little as well. I think the genesis of a really great motorcycle starts off with people drawing pictures of it on bar napkins, not with a spreadsheet and a list of features.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Barabus on August 15, 2007, 09:13:32 pm
The good news is that Sport Touring is the second fastest growing segment, next to dual sport.  So we will be seeing a lot more innovation is the ST market.  Perhaps someone that has influence will see the Skipper's poll?


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on August 15, 2007, 09:16:38 pm



+1 But then look what we're currently riding!  :lol:

Yes, I have a terminal case of small bike disease.  Sad that most of the smaller bikes are 80s leftovers, but at least they're dependable, more so than some of the current stuff.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Chick on August 15, 2007, 10:38:35 pm
You left one out for linked brakes:  The BMW has semi linked; pull the front and the rear reacts too.  Stomp on the rear, and only the rear works.  This is great for slow parking lot speeds, or going down my 20% slope 150 foot long gravel driveway.

Great poll!  fun to see what everybody else thinks is important.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: swimmer on August 15, 2007, 11:25:18 pm
BMW actually came pretty close to the perfect bike for me with the 800ST.  Just wish it had a little smaller inline 2, a ow mounted exhaust, a smaller price, and biggest of all didn't have the gremlins that seems to be effecting a lot of new owners.  So I guess my Kaw 650R is even closer except no belt drive and no centerstand.  Anyone ever add a center stand to a bike that didn't have one?  A small VFR (with an line twin) would be the shit.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: highside on August 16, 2007, 12:46:36 am
Anyone ever add a center stand to a bike that didn't have one?


Yeah, it's not usually too big of a deal, people put them on SVs all the time. Problem is that from the look of it the 650R, with it's exhaust and fairing set up, doesnt have any place where one could be installed. Look at this picture, I  can't figure out where one could go without a LOT of material and work.

(http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2005/06Ninja650/rear_600.jpg)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 16, 2007, 01:13:48 am
Also, please only vote once.  Don't vote with sock puppets.  Thanks. :thumbsup:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Busy Little Whiner on August 16, 2007, 03:53:36 am

I tried to think of as many relevent options as possible.  If something isn't covered in the poll choices, post it below.  I can added choices to the poll if some good ones come up.


Mercy Skipper... 500 lbs is the lowest you'll go in the poll??? no wonder there's little hope of ever
experiencing a 450 lb wet sport touring machine... please realize your site has the power to challenge the
manufactures to at least consider the possibilities???  


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on August 16, 2007, 08:02:57 am



Mercy Skipper... 500 lbs is the lowest you'll go in the poll??? no wonder there's little hope of ever
experiencing a 450 lb wet sport touring machine... please realize your site has the power to challenge the
manufactures to at least consider the possibilities???  

Is this another vote for the mini VFR?  I'd be in heaven if we got a FI little bike over here in the states.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: bomber on August 16, 2007, 10:26:24 am
Geez Louise on the weight basement -- with the options all off, it's just GOTTA be less than 5 large!

good food for thought, though -- thanks for thinkin it up!

an alternate take on some of the choices might be outcomes/capabilities rather than specs, though -- i.e., range, rather than fuel capacity, performance rather than engine size, and like that

 


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: vfrrider on August 16, 2007, 11:32:56 am
You only missed 2 items.

1. Exhaust, underengine, side exit.

2. Luggage, none. Separate Unigo. More capacity, no sign when left at home/hotel for running around.

See me next year for prototype. All parts gathered, central uniframe in design now.

Larry
VFRrider


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 16, 2007, 12:06:24 pm

You only missed 2 items.

1. Exhaust, underengine, side exit.

2. Luggage, none. Separate Unigo. More capacity, no sign when left at home/hotel for running around.

See me next year for prototype. All parts gathered, central uniframe in design now.


Yeah, I missed under engine exhaust.  That's why I asked people to post things I forgot.  I theory this list could be 10 times what I listed. :lol:

For all the options:  Optional = none.  If you don't want luggage...don't buy em. :D


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Busy Little Whiner on August 16, 2007, 01:06:00 pm


Is this another vote for the mini VFR?  I'd be in heaven if we got a FI little bike over here in the states.


My eyes would just roll to heaven if Honda anted up a 600cc version of the 400cc NC35... pure sex on wheels... no???

(http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Honda_RVF400_NC35.jpg)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Scratch33 on August 16, 2007, 01:17:45 pm
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Gq714Q-In31-uM:http://vcmstatic.sabc.co.za/VCMStaticProdStage/EDUCATION/Schools/Beyond%2520The%2520Classroom/Ideas%2520Library/Theme%2520Pictures/Circus/Clown%2520car.jpg)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on August 16, 2007, 01:58:18 pm



My eyes would just roll to heaven if Honda anted up a 600cc version of the 400cc NC35... pure sex on wheels... no???

(http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Honda_RVF400_NC35.jpg)

I'd just be happy with bringing back the nc35!  You could big bore it if you wanted.  :lol:  Honestly, the ~53 ponies (a few more with FI and a new pipe I'm sure) would be all I'd want.  Right now it looks like the closest thing to a perfect bike for me will be to frankenbike a ninja 500.  Add a luggage rack, upgrade the suspension, and do all sorts of other stuff to it.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Busy Little Whiner on August 16, 2007, 02:06:30 pm


I'd just be happy with bringing back the nc35!  You could big bore it if you wanted.  :lol:  Honestly, the ~53 ponies (a few more with FI and a new pipe I'm sure) would be all I'd want.  Right now it looks like the closest thing to a perfect bike for me will be to frankenbike a ninja 500.  Add a luggage rack, upgrade the suspension, and do all sorts of other stuff to it.


Mercy Lauren... if it were possible to big bore the 400 to 600 I'd allready have done it... how about you
only call up 53 of your 106 ponies instead???


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on August 16, 2007, 02:26:11 pm



Mercy Lauren... if it were possible to big bore the 400 to 600 I'd allready have done it... how about you
only call up 53 of your 106 ponies instead???

A V4 600 does sound very interesting, I agree.  It's just that if I have too many more ponies than I need, I start seeing blue flashing lights.  :lol:  The 636 is a back road weekend toy for that reason, and the 250 does the long hauls and touring.  At least I only road rage on the bicycle.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Fourstring on August 16, 2007, 04:42:24 pm
Huh.  After ticking through all the boxes as far as what I really want (cheap, shaft drive, cheap, luggage, wind protection, cheap), I ended up with:

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/graphics/1998/05/09/mfbike1.jpg)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 16, 2007, 04:45:56 pm

Huh.  After ticking through all the boxes as far as what I really want (cheap, shaft drive, cheap, luggage, wind protection, cheap), I ended up with:

Yep.  Some people may find, if they answer the poll honestly, that the bike they are looking for already exists.  Or one very close to it.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: desert_rider on August 16, 2007, 05:00:23 pm


Yep.  Some people may find, if they answer the poll honestly, that the bike they are looking for already exists.  Or one very close to it.


You said it man:
With the hard bags, please!
(http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5858/buelldl8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Fourstring on August 16, 2007, 05:49:28 pm


Yep.  Some people may find, if they answer the poll honestly, that the bike they are looking for already exists.  Or one very close to it.


True.  NOW BRING IT TO THE STATES, HONDA!


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: rodm850g on August 17, 2007, 11:36:52 pm
Skip,
Best poll I have seen in a long time....while many disagree on many fine point there were a lot of points that got hit by many people...The fellow with the pic of the Deauville would fill the bill for many people. One of the major mags many years back did a similar poll...I think it was back in about 83..the Yamaha Vision had a lot of what people wanted......Too bad it went the way of a lot of Yamahas.....Great poll ..though a lot of what I wanted I got in my ST1300...yeah guys I readily admit it is heavier..and so am I but it carries me well and ridden at the "pace" gives pretty good economy...Keep up the good work oh about the sabbatical .... and time off They retired my old butt after 27 years as a Fire Fighter something about not passing a pulmonary function test...best job I ever had....worked 110 days a year.....got 10 shifts off a year and major holidays too.
3 shifts were good for two weeks....schedule a sick day a month...man that was some easy doings til something was on fire....heck now I am after another retirement at 60...4 more years and all I am gonna do is go riding...
Rodm850g


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: JReazor on August 18, 2007, 12:36:21 pm

Huh.  After ticking through all the boxes as far as what I really want (cheap, shaft drive, cheap, luggage, wind protection, cheap), I ended up with:

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/graphics/1998/05/09/mfbike1.jpg)


That's very close to what I'm looking for as well. If only they'd bring it to the states.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: ZED on August 18, 2007, 09:43:02 pm



Mercy Skipper... 500 lbs is the lowest you'll go in the poll??? no wonder there's little hope of ever
experiencing a 450 lb wet sport touring machine... please realize your site has the power to challenge the
manufactures to at least consider the possibilities???  


I was surprised too.  Ideally I would want a curb weight of less than 500lbs.  My Z1000 and ST3 weigh in at about 440lbs dry.  That's as heavy as I want as I always seem to end up in un-ideal conditions.  For example, I hit  several km of gravel in road construction on my first day trip on the ST3 today. :crazy:   (I'm currently deliberately avoiding things like that until my shoulder injury heals.  I was not impressed)

I picked I4 instead of V-twin.  I know own both types and the difference is amazing.  I find the I4 to be smoother off idle (good for around town).  The L2 of the Ducati however, is kind of lumpy and grumpy off idle, but then the torque starts to pull from quite low and just keeps going.  In order to not exceed the break-in RPM I would up shift before each pass today and I still had lots of torque  :D

So, maybe I should change my vote.  The I4 is a good around town bike and a good squid bike, whereas the L seems better for touring.

P.S.  I also voted for Desmo valves, but with a really really looong adjustment interval!


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Cpl Punishment on August 19, 2007, 03:56:28 pm
Wot about the Rocket 3-limited to a mere 1400cc!! And there's a new super-rocket coming out....
I want a V8, too. That weighs nothing. And is free.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on August 19, 2007, 08:47:42 pm

I was surprised too.  Ideally I would want a curb weight of less than 500lbs.


You don't see a 400 lb or 450 lb weight option on the list because I'm a realist.  Based on many of the options people are picking is probably not possible to have a 400 lb weight bike with a bunch of bells and whistles, be dead reliable in all kind of conditions, and cost less than $12K.

The 500 lb minimum seemed reasonable to me.  Out of 98 votes I've only seen a few people bring it up.

For those of you who want that sort of weight you're going to have to settle for a seriously stripped down naked to supersport.  :shrug:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: ZED on August 19, 2007, 09:38:33 pm
Some good points there skipper.  I've toured on a stripped down naked.  Now I have an ST3. ;)

Also, if I had to, I'd trade 50lbs for high reliability.  We are, afterall, talking about sport-touring here, not building the ideal play-toy.  So, in hind sight yes, I think your range of weight options was reasonable.  

But hey, I can still dream of a 400lbs fully farkled ST.  And, I may as well dream of a 300lbs KRL with a six speed while I'm at it!  Ok, now I know I've lost touch with reality.  :lol:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: garry on August 20, 2007, 07:54:56 am
Liter-class sportbikes weigh about 450 wet these days. Add a beefier subframe and an extra gallon of fuel and you'd be pushing 475 maybe? With empty hard luggage maybe 500. My Wee Strom (470 wet) feels like a big blue pig compared to the 636 (420 wet).

Several bike comes close to what I want, but no one has put that magic combination together (yet). A Multistrada with 20 more HP, a decent looking fairing and 12K valve adjustments would be close. A Ulysses with the new 1125 engine would be close. A Tiger with a new rear end (lose the fugly seat, add undertail exhaust, fully functional luggage) would be close.

Flat 75+ ft-lb torque curve with 10K redline. 50 MPG. 500 pounds wet with empty hard luggage attached. 6.5+ inches suspension travel. Upright ergos. Triple disc brakes with ABS. Mostly naked with small, effective windscreen. Rips in the twisties like a sportbike. Comfy enough for all day. Able to handle bumpy, beat up pavement and decent dirt/gravel roads. 250 mile range (to empty). Low maintenance. Comfy enough for pillion for short day rides. $12K MSRP with luggage included.


Title: Nudie pictures HERE!
Post by: UFO on August 29, 2007, 06:10:48 pm
Bizzump.  Made you look.   :lol:  Surely there are more than 134 members that want to weigh in on this.*






*In other words:  GTFO out of the Politics Only forum once in awhile.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on September 11, 2007, 01:30:02 pm
Summary so far:


ENGINE
It's clear that many people are enamored with the 1000cc V4 configuration.  High mileage valve train maintanence is also popular...as is the option of Hydraulic valves.

Engine Configuration: †V4
Displacement: †1000cc
Fueling: †Fuel Injection
Valve Train: †Standard Overhead.
Valve Adjust (if needed): †~30,000 miles
Valve Adjust Type: †Hydraulic
Gears: †6
Engine Cooling:  Liquid

--------------------------------------

CHASSIS / ELECTRICAL
Voters want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want a slew of options and accessories and they want it relatively light.  Bright and clear HID and LED lights are popular for safety and "coolness."  Fully adjustable suspension is expected in this day and age of high tech motorcycling.

Weight: †~500 lbs
Final Drive: †Shaft
Gas Tank: †Metal
Fuel Capacity: †~6.0 gallons
Suspension: †Manual, full adjust
Front Brakes: †Radial Mount
ABS: †Optional
Linked Brakes: †No
Front Fork: †Upside Down, Standard
Swingarm:  Single Sided or Standard ... dead heat
Wheels: †17 inch
Generator Output:  700W or 600W ... another dead heat
Signals:  Integrated self cancelling, with integrated manual cancelling close behind.  Clearly stalks are out.
Lights: †HID
Tail Lights: †LED
Exhaust: †Dual
Cat Location:  In Can or Before Can ... another split.
Load Capacity:  Designed for Solo STing or 2UP STing ... a wash.  Interesting to see a lot of riders not interested in any passenger accomodatoins of an kind (raises hand).

--------------------------------------

STYLING
Aggressive styling with integrated turn signals is where it's at.  And buyers have spoken:  More than ONE color "choice"!!

Color Options:  More Than 1 ... but some people do not want the ability to choose.  Mmkay.
Frame Styling:  Aluminum or Anodized Aluminum ... split.
Overall Styling:  Smooth, Aggressive.  Conservative styling of either kind was not popular.
Fairing:  Some Form of Adjustable Ducting
Mirrors:  Length Manually Adjustable

--------------------------------------

ACCESSORIES
Removable hardbags and factory power outlets are no brainer to voters, but people would like the choice to have many other factory installed options to choose from.  Right side dash controls are not popular, but this is usually what most bikes give us today.  And for some reason half the voters don't want a couple hooks under their seat for helmets. :headscratch:

Windscreen: †Standard, Motorized
Heated Accessories:  Optional, with Grips only a close second
Hardbags: †Standard, Removable
GPS: †Optional
Ergos:  Manual adjustable (seat, bars, pegs)
Power Outlets: †2 standard
Instruments:  Mostly Analog or Mostly Digital ... a split
Cruise Control: †Optional
Glove Box: †Yes
Underseat Helmet Hooks:  Yes, by a narrow margin.  This one baffles me.
Ignition:  Standard Key.  Clearly people aren't impressed with a keyless ignition on the bikes...yet.
Instrument Controls:  Left Side, Bar Mount.  People do not like right side instruments of any kind according to the poll.

--------------------------------------

PRICE
It's probably not realistic to expect all the choices and options above to come in at $12,000, but this is what the vote says.

Ideal Price Point for Options You Picked:  $12,000

--------------------------------------

Clearly some people can't read instructions as some categories had more votes than people who took the poll.  Meaning some tools voted for two (or more) options in one category.  Also, some people did not vote in every category.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Busy Little Whiner on September 11, 2007, 03:07:29 pm
All reeeeeeeeeeeeeet... the hills will be alive with V4 moozic...


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Headmanbrewing on September 11, 2007, 03:35:19 pm
Skip, can you see a summary of what one person voted?  


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on September 11, 2007, 03:39:39 pm
No.  Probably digging in to the database might show, but I'm n00bish to such things and don't want that much detail.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Headmanbrewing on September 11, 2007, 03:45:58 pm
I was just curious if you could see (for example) who voted for a 1400cc bike with every available option, and still thinks it should be under 500 pounds.   :lol:  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on September 11, 2007, 03:48:01 pm
and cost $10K :D


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: hawkeyejohn14 on September 11, 2007, 03:49:53 pm
Hey I like building my own bike. Engine config. inline 6 from the Suzuki prototype last year, the inline 6 is supposed to the smoothest engine configuration. I want to also keep the weight low, I am not getting any younger and the back isn't what it used to be. I would rather have infinite choices on manual suspension than only 3 on electronic as if we all weigh the same... Gotta have color choices, I don't need my ride looking the same as someone elses. Big Gas tank, single sided swing arm for easy tire removal, belt drive for ease of maintanence, paralever front suspension which is excellent once you get used to it and learn to trust it. Underseat exaust to make room for the saddle bags or shorty's on either side like the GSZ-R 750, trellis frame because I like the look and I don't want to cover it completely with a fairing, electric adjustable windshield because once you have had it you will always want it if it works as well as the BMW RT's do. 1400cc engine with gobs of torque for two up loaded, no key start becuse it's cool. I have more but need to run.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Busy Little Whiner on September 11, 2007, 08:19:29 pm

I was just curious if you could see (for example) who voted for a 1400cc bike with every available option, and still thinks it should be under 500 pounds.   :lol:  :rolleyes:



To design means aim, conception, innovation, intent, invention, pattern, plan, project,

So to design a bike you blueprint for 500 pounds but by the time it hits the road it's 600 pounds... that
means you don't start with 600 pounds because it will grow to 700 pounds by the time it hits the road...


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: bizarro on September 11, 2007, 08:24:54 pm


Yes, I have a terminal case of small bike disease.  Sad that most of the smaller bikes are 80s leftovers, but at least they're dependable, more so than some of the current stuff.


Nothing wrong with small bike disease. I'd still ride small bikes if I could sit on them comfortably. Once I really know how to work on it and am competent at side-of-the-road repairs and I've sourced a fairing that works with the lines of the bike my Guzzi is going to be perfect for me as a sport-tourer. :shrug:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: baldheadeddork on September 12, 2007, 07:43:08 pm
Mine would be something very close to the Ducati ST3, but I'd like it with the DS1100 air cooled engine, belt drive and screw-type valve adjusters. I'd also like an S-option for better brakes and suspension, and I'd pay $14K for that. (No reason on earth why it couldn't be well under 500 pounds.)

I'd also much prefer a bike designed for solo ST.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Lon on September 16, 2007, 01:50:13 am

The poll to end all polls. :lol:

No kidding.

I think I built a VFR-1000-ST...thing. 500lbs (duh :) )  $14,000.

Basically, if you take a ST1300, shave it down 230lbs (sans options), and give it BMW-style weight carrying, I'd buy it for about $14,000. My R1100S is 500 wet - and has a 460lb-ish load capacity on top of that.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: ZED on September 16, 2007, 11:24:35 pm

Mine would be something very close to the Ducati ST3, but I'd like it with the DS1100 air cooled engine, belt drive and screw-type valve adjusters. I'd also like an S-option for better brakes and suspension, and I'd pay $14K for that. (No reason on earth why it couldn't be well under 500 pounds.)

I'd also much prefer a bike designed for solo ST.


Just curious, why the preference for air cooled?  Having an ST3 it often hits over 102DegC in traffic if I go through a city.  At those moments I'm glad that it's water cooled with a fan in front of the radiator.

Lots of really good things I like about it, just a few that I'd change.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Headmanbrewing on September 16, 2007, 11:31:03 pm
I'm not sure about bhd's reasoning, but my reason is water cooled is heavier, with more parts to break.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: ZED on September 16, 2007, 11:40:59 pm
Good point.  In order to not bog down and hijack this thread, I'll start a new poll on water vs. air cooling.

Good poll skipper!  Some neat options, and good to see peoples thoughts and reasons.  Keep them coming.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: baldheadeddork on September 16, 2007, 11:56:42 pm



Just curious, why the preference for air cooled?  Having an ST3 it often hits over 102DegC in traffic if I go through a city.  At those moments I'm glad that it's water cooled with a fan in front of the radiator.

Lots of really good things I like about it, just a few that I'd change.



Mostly for simplicity and appearance. I've always been a big fan of the bikini fairings and they look really good with a trellis frame and an air cooled 90 degree Vee below. I'm becoming more of a minimalist as I get older, so I'd take a 90hp air cooled bike that weighed on the very low side of 400 pounds dry over a 150hp bike pulling around close to 600 lbs. This is why I've become such a huge fan of belt drives, too. (Any help getting "Simplify and add lightness" onto a license plate?)

About cooling: You do have to be a little more concerned with rear cylinder temperature on an air cooled vee, but its easy to avoid problems if you make the rear cylinder run just a little richer.

The advantage of liquid cooling has a lot more to do with the temperatures inside the engine than the cooling air outside. Liquid cooling has the potential for a huge performance increase because you can greatly reduce the temperature at critical points inside the combustion chamber. Eliminate those detonation sources and you can bump compression a full point or more and design the head with narrower bridges between the valves, which can improve flow efficiency.

Liquid cooling wicks heat away from the combustion chamber better than air, but in the scenario you describe there isn't much of an advantage to liquid cooling. At low speeds you're pumping coolant through your engine that is at least 80% hotter than the atmospheric air moving over the cooling fins.

Both an air cooled bike and a liquid cooled bike will be fine even in a place like Phoenix in July (speaking from experience) as long as you don't do something stupid like repeatedly racing the engine while you're only moving at three mph. Do that and you can overload the cooling ability of any engine, liquid or air.



Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: highside on September 19, 2007, 07:14:54 pm
This thread demonstrates why there will never be a perfect sport touring motorcycle. What the people want is perfectly unreasonable, maybe impossible. They want a bike that is loaded with contradictory options, zero maintinence, high performance, low weight, and sold at a loss.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Silver Penguin on September 19, 2007, 09:05:02 pm
I'm sure there would be a market for an adjustable seat height that goes DOWN as well as upwards.  Many women, and shorter men are steered towards cruisers for this very reason.  


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: dart1202 on September 20, 2007, 12:40:57 am
The poll to start all trolls??  Twofinger

That was fun ...


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on October 22, 2007, 07:21:57 pm
This needs another bump.  I know there are a bunch who haven't taken the poll. :bigok:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: ZED on October 23, 2007, 08:44:24 pm
It's a good poll.  It definitely takes some time and thought.  Having had more time on the Ducati to compare with the I4 Z, I think I'll have to go back and change my answers.  


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: number9 on October 25, 2007, 06:19:22 am
This is a great poll - I just hope some industry insiders are READING IT  :crazy:

I don't want a bike over #500 WET, ABS, VVT, V-TECH, linked brakes, fancy gizmo's that add to the weight & cost of the bike. Give me a light weight bike with simple valve train, long adjustments, plenty power, sportbike class suspension and brakes with removable hard luggage and long distance between the fuel stops.

I love my ST1100 for a long-distance sport-tourer - if you are covering several states for several days either on the slab or in the twisties you just can't beat it. However, the wooden brakes, soft suspension and excessive mass wear you down over time and don't lend to local sport-touring or get out and ride a few hours type of riding.

I love my FZ1 for it's light weight (compared to the ST), plenty power, fully adjustable suspension and great brakes. If there was only some way of combining the two bikes into one............


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: bomber on October 26, 2007, 04:23:07 pm
hadn't looked at this poll in a long far -- I hope industry insiders are NOT looking at it -- sheesh, they'd look at the results, throw up their hands and say, "no WAY we can sell more than 20 of anything to these people!"

interesting, the lack of variation in the percentages of the answers -- high of 2.2%, low of 0.2%

;-}


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on October 26, 2007, 04:30:02 pm

hadn't looked at this poll in a long far -- I hope industry insiders are NOT looking at it -- sheesh, they'd look at the results, throw up their hands and say, "no WAY we can sell more than 20 of anything to these people!"

interesting, the lack of variation in the percentages of the answers -- high of 2.2%, low of 0.2%

;-}

You have to look at the answers for a specific option.  220 people want FI, 10 want carbs!


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Headmanbrewing on October 26, 2007, 04:36:41 pm
I picked that I want carbs, just because I can actually work on and repair them.  FI, take it to the dealer so they can replace some major component.  Yes, FI is more efficient and doesn't require fiddling with to make them work right, but that's my reasoning.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on October 26, 2007, 04:43:42 pm

I picked that I want carbs, just because I can actually work on and repair them.  FI, take it to the dealer so they can replace some major component.  Yes, FI is more efficient and doesn't require fiddling with to make them work right, but that's my reasoning.

It's nice to be able to rejet instead of getting a PC and having it programmed, but at the same time I think that starting on the first try no matter how freaking cold it is can be really nice and worth it. :)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: veefer800canuck on March 16, 2008, 05:12:01 pm
I see that the "ideal" ST.n bike ia a V-4 with a SSSA, 1000cc's.


The new VFR?????  :bigok:  











REALITY CHECK WARNING BELOW:
( this is me, not holding my breath -->  :rolleyes: )


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Busy Little Whiner on March 16, 2008, 09:05:15 pm

I see that the "ideal" ST.n bike ia a V-4 with a SSSA, 1000cc's.


Wow... V4s... didn't see that coming...


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: chiltech500 on March 18, 2008, 06:21:05 pm
I want Goldwing-like chest and head protection for highway and air conditioning for hot humid days  :lol:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: nomagnashn on March 23, 2008, 08:48:21 pm
Looks like most of my choices were the most popular.  :thumbsup:

Very cool poll!


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: ghostrider on June 07, 2008, 01:22:01 am
Please include a comfortable saddle, lower c.g., and lower ride height (those of us that are inseam challenged have a very hard time with top heavy, tall bikes), I have a current C-14 and love it except for the aforementioned problems.  I ride twisties and the super slab as well, and I go far too fast, so I could use a built in Radar Jammer!


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: mlinkibikr on June 24, 2008, 05:09:10 pm
Great idea Skipper - I think I designed a VFR 1200, with lots of ergo adjustability, fuel range, and relatively simple mechanics.

I'll take mine in Black by the way. And can I have a few "farkle" tie in points pre engineered in the wiring harness for my radar, nav, and music system?

Dave.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Nodaclu on June 24, 2008, 05:41:33 pm
Like a few others, I basically designed a Honda Deauville.  :D

If I'm a marketing guy though, I'm thinking that to sell it in the States, it would have to be re-badged as an ST700, always parked next to ST1300's, and marketed heavily to women.

I'm not saying its right, or even fair, but that's probably the only shot it would have of selling here....sadly.

The BMW F800ST also comes pretty close for me. I just hate overpaying for a badge/logo, and that thing seems to be having some serious teething problems for the money they're asking.

Not being an Aprilia guy, I only recently discovered the 850 Mana. Also not perfect with its chain drive and lack of fairing, but at least its in the ballpark.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Fast Blue on June 25, 2008, 10:12:28 am
I would be all giddy if I could put a ZZR 1200 motor in a BMW- R bike :thumbsup:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: zedoc on June 25, 2008, 10:29:02 am
You listed a lot of catagories. It's a little difficult to interpret the results.


You missed color. One of the reasdons that the Connie-14 is unacceptable to me is because of the bland, non-sporting Neutron Silver color that it is limited to.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: cultureslayer on June 26, 2008, 01:01:57 pm

You listed a lot of catagories. It's a little difficult to interpret the results.


You missed color. One of the reasdons that the Connie-14 is unacceptable to me is because of the bland, non-sporting Neutron Silver color that it is limited to.

That's easy to fix.  :bigok:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Justin on June 30, 2008, 03:25:24 pm
After I picked all my options I assume the bike would run about 1.5 million dollars..... heck, I'll just stick with the XX a bit longer....


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Phenix_Rider on September 30, 2008, 09:04:45 pm
What I described is a slightly larger 650R.  About 750-1000cc, better tuning, better suspension, better brakes, same looks.  Maybe add an extra two cylinders in a V4, and maybe underseat instead of underengine.  Analog gauges, with no silly frufru stuff or gigantic windscreen.  I'll keep my standard swingarm, steel frame, chain, and shim/bucket valves to keep price down.  I think $10k would be a good price point.

Lots of options on your list I simply don't want.  ABS- NO; cruise control- NO; hardbags- NO; center stand- NO, heated/adjustable/GPS/electronic suspension- HELL NO!  Fuel range doesn't matter- as long as it's not a pathetic 100-ish miles.



Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on October 12, 2008, 03:32:22 am

You listed a lot of catagories. It's a little difficult to interpret the results.


You missed color. One of the reasdons that the Connie-14 is unacceptable to me is because of the bland, non-sporting Neutron Silver color that it is limited to.


Color options: 1    21 votes
Color options: More than 1    403 votes



Current results:

Engine config: V4
Displacement:  ~1000cc
Wet weight:  ~500 lbs
Final drive: shaft
Fuel: ~6.0 gal
Ergos: Manual adjust (seat, bars, pegs)
Heated: Optional  (won by 1 vote over heated grips standard)
ABS: Optional
Windscreen: Motorized
Swingarm: Single sided
Hardbags: Standard removable
GPS: Optional
Suspension: Fully adjustable, manual  (ESA type failed miserably, kind of a surprise)
Power outlets: 2 standard
Instruments:  Mostly analog (like the current Busa)
Engine cooling:  Liquid
Color options: More than 1
Gas tank:  metal
Generator output:  ~700W
Gears: 6
Signals: Integrated into bodywork/mirrors, self canceling
Cruise control:  optional
Linked brakes:  No
Lights: HID
Tail light: LED
Glove box: Yes
Underseat helmet hooks: Yes
Front brakes: Radial mount
Front fork: USD Standard
Fueling: Fuel injection
Wheels: 17 inch
Ignition: Manual key  (keyless ignition failed miserably)
Instrument controls:  Left side, dash mount  (surprisingly bar mount instrument controls is behind by 2.  At least left side is winning)
Mirrors: Adjustable length, manual
Frame styling:  Aluminum
Overall styling:  Smooth, aggressive
Fairing: Forms of adjustable ducting
Exhaust: Underseat and Single Side   (currently a dead heat)
Cat: In can
Valve train: Standard overhead   (surprisingly VVT is losing)
Valve adjust: ~30K miles
Valve adjust type: Hydraulic type
Ideal price point for options you picked:  $12000
Load capacity:  Traditional 2 up touring

A few contradictions jump out at me.  The main ones being:  500 lbs wet with all the options people still want, including a rear subframe designed for 2 up touring isn't going to happen.  $12K is probably low with such things as HID headlights, LED tail lights, and tooling a bike that has a large option list (bags, heated grips, heated seat, GPS, ABS).

From scanning the list here's what I see:  ST.N members want a 1000cc VFR with most of the options/features that BMWs (K1200S) have...and they basicaly want it for free. :lol: :lol:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: JReazor on October 12, 2008, 08:13:46 am

Color options: 1    21 votes
Color options: More than 1    403 votes


Probably should have had a Solid color vs. BNG category.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on February 06, 2009, 01:08:20 pm
Bump for new/lazy members.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: aceclown on February 06, 2009, 08:41:40 pm
Thanks for the bump.  I hadn't stumbled upon this one yet.  After reviewing the results I found out I'm fairly normal and want everything just like everyone else. :)



A few contradictions jump out at me.  The main ones being:  500 lbs wet with all the options people still want, including a rear subframe designed for 2 up touring isn't going to happen.  $12K is probably low with such things as HID headlights, LED tail lights, and tooling a bike that has a large option list (bags, heated grips, heated seat, GPS, ABS).



I think your being a pessimist.  With all the demand we have here for a perfect bike I'm sure someone will build one for us at a reasonable price.  I would expect the release date to be around 2030 and of course then we'll want one that doesn't use gas and hoovers.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Phenix_Rider on February 08, 2009, 01:30:34 pm

we'll want one that doesn't use gas and hoovers.


No street cleaning attachments for mine, thanks  :lol:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Orson on October 28, 2010, 04:11:19 am
The results so far...

A liquid-cooled, 1200cc V four with a shaft drive and removable hard bags...

sounds like...  :headscratch:

A Honda VFR1200??  :eek:

 :omgomgomg: :omgomgomg: :omgomgomg:

Are there any other current offerings come any closer?


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: sammyseaman on October 29, 2010, 08:40:18 am

The results so far...

A liquid-cooled, 1200cc V four with a shaft drive and removable hard bags...

sounds like...  :headscratch:

A Honda VFR1200??  :eek:

 :omgomgomg: :omgomgomg: :omgomgomg:

Are there any other current offerings come any closer?


Typical STNers, all talk, no action. Want proof? We have one, count 'em one VFR1200 owner and he just fessed up.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: JReazor on October 29, 2010, 09:18:22 am

The results so far...

A liquid-cooled, 1200cc V four with a shaft drive and removable hard bags...

sounds like...  :headscratch:

A Honda VFR1200??  :eek:

 :omgomgomg: :omgomgomg: :omgomgomg:

Are there any other current offerings come any closer?



Sure but Honda missed the completely unrealistic but desired price point. I might have missed it in the poll but where was the "makes it look like a baboon's ass" option?


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Oddball on October 30, 2010, 09:06:01 am
Can't believe I have not seen this poll prior to today. :headscratch:

Well I also have some different thoughts then most of the group it appears also. :twofinger:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Orson on February 19, 2011, 04:42:04 am
Poll needs fresh votes  :D


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Andrew on February 19, 2011, 08:58:44 pm
OK so 500 LBS may/is a bit portly but I bet she can handle herself in a heavy cross wind.

Remember this is not a SPORT touring, or a sport Touring, something more like a sport-touring. A bit of each, not toooo much or either something down the middle

Say something like ........................... (as long as it is not made by honda)


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: UFO on June 03, 2018, 02:51:07 pm
This poll is 11 years old...and still stickied.  :lol:

Forgot all about it.


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: motrhead on June 03, 2018, 11:15:33 pm
 Other than  having an extra100cc displacement, plastic tank and normal front forks, I mostly described an FJ-09.  


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: Mrs. DantesDame on June 04, 2018, 03:12:27 pm

This poll is 11 years old...and still stickied.  :lol:

Forgot all about it.


 :lol:

Good posts never really die, do they?  :cool:


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: rajflyboy on June 04, 2018, 03:58:16 pm
Goldwing

There itís done

Best Sport Tourer ever


Title: Re: Design the ST.N sport tourer!
Post by: motrhead on June 04, 2018, 11:05:01 pm
Wrong answer. Zero Sport in the Goldwing. I've waited for enough of them over the years, and never found them sporty in any way (and yes, I own two older ones). If you had said ST1100/1300 you would have had a good  argument.


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