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Topic: So, I walked out of a store to where my new Trophy was parked...  (Read 18205 times)

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DaleFranks
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« on: January 29, 2015, 05:46:20 pm »

...and I saw this:



S, warranty repair, I guess, at 668 miles. Enraging.

Maybe I should've sprung for the BMW R1200RT after all.
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 05:58:38 pm »

It's just marking it's territory.


Or it's really pissed (no pun) at you.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 06:02:38 pm »

Check the connectors.
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 08:21:15 pm »

What can one say? That is just so infuriating.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 09:36:28 pm »

How much water is mixed with the antifreeze?  Perhaps not enough and it's running a tad warm?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 10:02:50 pm by R Doug » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 09:41:16 pm »

Not good.  Keep us posted on this one.
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2015, 10:55:48 am »

Hopefully just a clamp.

That rear tire also looks a bit underinflated?

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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2015, 12:21:03 pm »

Tough to see this just when my impressions of Triumphs of yesteryear were fading.  Guess that's why I always lean Japanese.  Can't wait for my FJ 09 Smile
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2015, 01:18:40 pm »

Have you found the cause?  Was it a lose hose? Overflow? Worse?


When I first read the thread title, I assumed you were going to say the bike was knocked over when you got back to it.  Thanks goodness it wasn't that.  
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2015, 01:40:13 pm »

Could just be some air in there that needs released.  I remember seeing the same thing with my Tiger 1050 while on a trip to the Dragon a few years ago.  I had recently changed the coolant and had not properly burped the air / topped it off when refilling.  It would mean poor set-up by the dealer, but not a major deal either.
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2015, 05:41:33 pm »

I'd bet a stinkin' BMW was parked there before you pulled in...... Bigok
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2015, 05:51:17 pm »

My new Tiger had a few drips of antifreeze after I bought it  Sad.  It was just a hose clamp that could heve been tighter. Fixed it - no problem since.

But it wasn't your Lake Ethylene Glycol. Just a few drops.
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 07:10:31 pm »


I'd bet a stinkin' BMW was parked there before you pulled in...... Bigok

Not nice... but funny.

I'm hoping it's just a service bay monkey overfilling the expansion tank on predelivery.
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 08:30:25 pm »

Been riding Kawasaki's for over 35 years. Never had a puddle of antifreeze under my bike.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp236/Jimmymac25/newnail001_zps6938e991.jpg
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 08:38:20 pm »

Thirty-five years ago they were air cooled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2015, 11:46:12 pm »

Jesus jumping jehosphat, it's a leak not a catastrophic engine failure.       Shit happens.  
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2015, 08:27:16 am »


Been riding Kawasaki's for over 35 years. Never had a puddle of antifreeze under my bike.




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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2015, 11:11:51 am »

Prolly just a clamp.  Shit happens.  Its far better than a final drive.
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2015, 04:44:47 pm »

My 2008 Sprint leaked a bit of coolant when it was new.  I found a loose clamp as well.  Hasn't leaked a drop since!
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2015, 05:39:20 pm »

I feel your pain Dale, but you'd have just as many problems with a BMW.  It's either boring and reliable Japanese or exciting and unreliable Euros.  Disagreements to follow...
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2015, 08:59:23 pm »

Have had both euro and Japanese bike.  Don't see that much difference in reliability.  Out of the 10 bikes I've own in the past 4 yrs, the only one I had to take in to dealer for service was the C14.  Dead TPMS sensor.  Covered by warranty, well known to most, scorn by many.
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2015, 03:33:25 am »

I got the bike back from the dealer. The coolant was all coming from the overflow. Apparently the cap was a little defective. Everything worked fine, and the coolant system passed the pressure test...unless the cap got jiggled slightly, then it wouldn't hold pressure at all. So, they replaced the cap, and off I drove.

I had to burn a AAA tow to get it to the shop, but thankfully, it was a minor glitch, and I got it back yesterday.
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2015, 07:05:54 am »


I had to burn a AAA tow to get it to the shop, but thankfully, it was a minor glitch, and I got it back yesterday.


No roadside assistance from Triumph?  

Anyhoo, glad for you that it was a minor glitch.  

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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2015, 08:48:48 am »




I had to burn a AAA tow to get it to the shop, but thankfully, it was a minor glitch, and I got it back yesterday.



Warranty should cover the tow. If not, I  would fight it.
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2015, 10:12:51 am »

Glad to hear it was just the overflow, but too bad about the tow. I wouldn't expect Triumph to be responsible, because it sounds like a set up issue (overflow cap damaged) and assuming you took it back to the dealer where you purchased the bike, the least they could do is comp you with in-store credit for some goodies. $100 gift card would go a long way, if they won't just reimburse 100%
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2015, 10:50:22 am »


Have had both euro and Japanese bike.  Don't see that much difference in reliability.  Out of the 10 bikes I've own in the past 4 yrs, the only one I had to take in to dealer for service was the C14.  Dead TPMS sensor.  Covered by warranty, well known to most, scorn by many.


That's your personal experience.  The vast majority of evidence would suggest otherwise.
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2015, 12:10:06 pm »




That's your personal experience.  The vast majority of evidence would suggest otherwise.


That's not been my recent experience, in the last ten years with my BMW's or Triumphs, they've all been as reliable as a stone. It was the Yamaha Super Tenere that worried me the most. The headlight harness on the ST was recalled but prior to the recall my headlights went dark late on a moonless night in the middle of nowhere..... very scary, very dangerous.

In todays market I think the quality on all major brands is pretty darn good.....  if you use the bike as designed and take proper care of it. A defective radiator cap is no big deal and in my eyes simply doesn't matter, at least it's not of the magnitude of the Suzuki GSX and the Honda Goldwing frame failures of a few years ago, or the KTM 1190 Adeventure airbox issue.... Thumbsdown

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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2015, 01:04:53 pm »

Like I said, disagreements to follow.

Big picture, I'd encourage you to find unhappy BMW, Ducati and Triumph owners becuase of constant problems compared to Japanese bike owners.  At least you know what will probably go wrong with your Japanese bike whereas Euros have random shit falling off and harder to diagnose. JMHO. KTM SMT I had was a such a headache. Every Japanese I've had has been like an appliance, since were're narrowing this down to (worthless) personal experience
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2015, 01:12:56 pm »

I'd disagree too.  No problems from any of my bikes, and I've only owned unreliable Euro trash from Ducati (2), Triumph, Aprilia (2), BMW, and MV Agusta.  Oil and tires.
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2015, 01:18:06 pm »

Grain of salt, of course

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/japanese-bikes-are-the-most-reliable-which-is-the-worst-77794.html
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2015, 02:23:01 pm »

Anyone who purchases a bikes solely based on reliability is doing it wrong.  I'm not saying that's what's being implied... I'm just saying.
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2015, 03:11:15 pm »


Anyone who purchases a bikes solely based on reliability is doing it wrong.  I'm not saying that's what's being implied... I'm just saying.


That's what I told myself before I bought that KTM.

Do you want to ride? Or trailer it to the dealer all the time?
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2015, 05:22:08 pm »


That's your personal experience.  The vast majority of evidence would suggest otherwise.

You are free to beg to differ... and to listen to internet chatter.

I'd rather trust my own experiences.  Right, wrong, or indifferent.  Right now, out of the 3 street rides in my garage, the Speedie R is the only one that hasn't shown a single glitch... ever!  That 1050 triple had never skipped a single beat, and has never once failed to fire right up on the first touch of start button.  Everything looks as clean and tight as the first day I laid eyes on it.  This assembly of parts just has an aura of quality my Japanese bikes can't quite match.  Triumphs don't carry the ostentatious flamboyance of an Italian steed, or the cold techy precision of a German machine.  Just the quiet competence of a marque that seems to care a bit more than delivering something that merely works.
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2015, 09:50:34 pm »


Jesus jumping jehosphat, it's a leak not a catastrophic engine failure.       Shit happens.  

What he said. I wouldn't condemn an entire manufacturer, or Euro/Japan bikes over something like this.
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2015, 11:01:47 am »


Like I said, disagreements to follow.

Big picture, I'd encourage you to find unhappy BMW, Ducati and Triumph owners becuase of constant problems compared to Japanese bike owners.  At least you know what will probably go wrong with your Japanese bike whereas Euros have random shit falling off and harder to diagnose. JMHO. KTM SMT I had was a such a headache. Every Japanese I've had has been like an appliance, since were're narrowing this down to (worthless) personal experience


I ride'm all in my 55 years behind bars doing 20-25 k miles/year, and owned 45+ different bikes. I've only been stranded at road side twice, once on a H-D that shook the plates loose on a battery and once on a Guzzi. My modern Triumphs(post Prince of Darkness) and my BMW's have never let me down.
I don't buy your generalization.... seems your experiences have  been far different then mine. I've owned 8 BMW's since my  1st,a 1973 60/5 and have never been stranded at road side on one, same goes for the 3 modern Triumphs I've owned.   Seems some of the current Yamaha's(R1,FZ09, super Tenere) are suffering from cam chain tensioner  failures and the Super Tenere from excessive vibration caused by the clutch basket design, just like the Suzuki's 1000cc twins.  

MY Triumph Daytona 675 saw street duty and abuse at the track, it never skipped a beat. As to KTM... I don't need no stink'n bike from company that builds "ready to race" bikes.... unless they sponsor me and provide a pit crew! But in July I'll be at the KTM factory in Mattighofen for a tour and if they offer a free sample I'll take it!  Bigok

Paul
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:17:38 am by Roadscum » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2015, 11:29:09 am »


... and once on a Guzzi.


That's part of the "charm" of the Guzzi, and why I no longer have one.

I'd love to have another, but I'll never have one as my only/primary bike again.

/anecdotal

(post has been self-reported for guzzi bashing)
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2015, 11:38:56 am »

Glad it was simple fix, but it's still a bummer to have any teething pains with a brand new bike.

FWIW, the only bike I've had to trailer home in about 150K miles over the last 10 years was a Kawasaki ZX-6R with a bad wiring harness. That bike was otherwise reliable though. The Triumph Sprint RS, KTM 950 Supermoto, and Suzuki V-Strom always got me home (limped home a couple times on the KTM with a dying fuel pump).
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2015, 12:18:54 pm »

All of my bikes have been pretty stellar, from the Kaw, Honda, Yamaha, Aprilia x2, Triumph x2, and hopefully the second Honda.

RR went out on my Daytona 675, stranding me about 100 miles away and calling for a tow (seller told me about 4 times too many that he always kept it on a tender...asshole knew the RR was blown).  First Aprilia had a cracked coolant reservoir. Replaced the RR on the Sprint proactively so as to not suffer another failure on the road... Horn went out on my Sprint as well.  Thassit. I'd say modern bikes are pretty good - not just based on my personal experience, but from everything I've read and heard.  I'm with Doug - if reliability is the primary variable in choosing a bike, you're doing it wrong.

 -Dan
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2015, 12:29:14 pm »


All of my bikes have been pretty stellar, from the Kaw, Honda, Yamaha, Aprilia x2, Triumph x2, and hopefully the second Honda.

RR went out on my Daytona 675, stranding me about 100 miles away and calling for a tow (seller told me about 4 times too many that he always kept it on a tender...asshole knew the RR was blown).  First Aprilia had a cracked coolant reservoir. Replaced the RR on the Sprint proactively so as to not suffer another failure on the road... Horn went out on my Sprint as well.  Thassit. I'd say modern bikes are pretty good - not just based on my personal experience, but from everything I've read and heard.  I'm with Doug - if reliability is the primary variable in choosing a bike, you're doing it wrong.

 -Dan


I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box but I do have to ask...................what the heck is an RR???????????

Has to be something related to the charging system. That much I figured out.  Let's see............rectifier? Nah, alternator? Nah, ?
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2015, 12:30:26 pm »




I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box but I do have to ask...................what the heck is an RR???????????

Has to be something related to the charging system. That much I figured out.  Let's see............rectifier? Nah, alternator? Nah, ?


Rectifier / regulator

They're (usually) integrated into one package these days.
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« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2015, 12:34:09 pm »




Rectifier / regulator

They're (usually) integrated into one package these days.


WOW, I should have known that.          You are 100% correct!!!!!!!!!!!!
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 Street- '74 S3400, H1500, '72 H2750 x 2, '78 GS1000C, GS1000EC x 2, '80 GS1000S, '00 1200 Bandit, '05 FJR1300, '07 ZX14, '06 FJR1300(2 wks), '12 FJR1300
Dan K
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I'm only here to help. Really.




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« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2015, 12:34:40 pm »




Rectifier / regulator

They're (usually) integrated into one package these days.


yep. sorry.

- Dan
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Sometimes the only answer is defenestration. - Dan K
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« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2015, 12:51:57 pm »

Since we have devolved this thread into what has happened to our bikes, I have a great story. But before that, all my bikes over the years have been reliable and I have never had to have a tow.

In the 90s I'm on my way from Arizona to LA area on my GS1000C(wire wheels) Suzuki. Halfway the bike starts "coughing" and then goes to two cylinders only. OH,OH. I'm in the middle of the desert. Off comes the tank and seat. Off comes the ignition cover and I inspect the two points(each fires two cylinders). Everything is fine. I switch coils, no good, I switch points, no good. I switch condensers, no good. Everytime the same two cylinders are dead. Switch spark plugs on a bet, no good. I check main wiring connections and fuses near battery, no good. NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!! I've checked/switched everything and the same two cylinders are dead without spark!!!!!!!!!!! Connections, good. Grounding, good. I've got the bike disassembled on the side of the road down to frame!!!!!!!!!!

Many people stopped to help but with a smile I assured them I had the situation handled. Now I'm sweating and starting to believe in gremlins. The two inch length of harness that wrapped around a part of the frame on the way to the points was the only place on the whole bike I hadn't inspected. THERE IT IS!!!!!!!!!! The harness had rubbed through on the bottom of the frame to one of the ignition wires. Hence two cylinders dead no matter what I did down line toward the engine!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 01:21:06 pm by Blue is Best » Logged

Past bikes: Dirt- '74 MX360, SC500 x 2, '77 YZ400, '78 YZ400, '83 CR250, '85 CR250, '86 CR250   
 Street- '74 S3400, H1500, '72 H2750 x 2, '78 GS1000C, GS1000EC x 2, '80 GS1000S, '00 1200 Bandit, '05 FJR1300, '07 ZX14, '06 FJR1300(2 wks), '12 FJR1300
R Doug
Rain is my first name.
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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2015, 02:06:26 pm »

Regarding bike reliability and my comments, there are two constants in motorcycle forums.  First, when there’s a thread about which bike should *I* buy; there’s always the group which chimes in and says, “Well, you should purchase the bike I did.  I like it, therefore you must too.”  That’s going to happen.

The second is when someone chimes in with an issue they’re having on a non-Japanese bike someone generally chimes in saying, “If you would have purchased a Japanese bike, this wouldn’t have happened to you.”  

What’s the point of this kind of posting?  Why kick a person when their down?  Does it make you feel better to tell someone you have a superior quality bike?  I’ve just never got that mentality.  

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PatM
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On the road again




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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2015, 02:41:36 pm »


Regarding bike reliability and my comments, there are two constants in motorcycle forums.  First, when there’s a thread about which bike should *I* buy; there’s always the group which chimes in and says, “Well, you should purchase the bike I did.  I like it, therefore you must too.”  That’s going to happen.

The second is when someone chimes in with an issue they’re having on a non-Japanese bike someone generally chimes in saying, “If you would have purchased a Japanese bike, this wouldn’t have happened to you.” 

What’s the point of this kind of posting?  Why kick a person when their down?  Does it make you feel better to tell someone you have a superior quality bike?  I’ve just never got that mentality. 


There is another constant you forgot, someone, very vocal, posted a bad issue with his bike of that brand so all bikes from that brand are POS. Never mind that most other owners never had that issue. They're just fanboys, their opinions don't count.  Rolleyes
Anecdotal evidence is scientific thus true. 
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Cobalt
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« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2015, 02:45:42 pm »


There is another constant you forgot, someone, very vocal, posted a bad issue with his bike of that brand so all bikes from that brand are POS. Never mind that most other owners never had that issue. They're just fanboys, their opinions don't count.  Rolleyes
Anecdotal evidence is scientific thus true. 


You're right.

Except Guzzi!  Twofinger Lol Lol Lol
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Roadscum
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2015, 07:34:43 pm »


Regarding bike reliability and my comments, there are two constants in motorcycle forums.  First, when there’s a thread about which bike should *I* buy; there’s always the group which chimes in and says, “Well, you should purchase the bike I did.  I like it, therefore you must too.”  That’s going to happen.

The second is when someone chimes in with an issue they’re having on a non-Japanese bike someone generally chimes in saying, “If you would have purchased a Japanese bike, this wouldn’t have happened to you.”  

What’s the point of this kind of posting?  Why kick a person when their down?  Does it make you feel better to tell someone you have a superior quality bike?  I’ve just never got that mentality.  




+ 1

My theory is that they do it to demonstrate they are smarter then others and they always make the right decision ...... based on what they have read on the interweb!  Rolleyes

Or theory two is that's how they deal with the feeling of inadequacy they have about the size of their penis.    EEK!  Headscratch  Lol

Paul
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mxvet57
Let's find some twisty's
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« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2015, 08:13:54 pm »

Geez At this rate this thread could go to P.O.  Lol
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« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2015, 08:37:45 pm »

I thought some of you would like my "stuck in nowhere" story.       Headscratch     Maybe come up with a better story.


Wasn't me who blew the thread topic.          Bigok

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Past bikes: Dirt- '74 MX360, SC500 x 2, '77 YZ400, '78 YZ400, '83 CR250, '85 CR250, '86 CR250   
 Street- '74 S3400, H1500, '72 H2750 x 2, '78 GS1000C, GS1000EC x 2, '80 GS1000S, '00 1200 Bandit, '05 FJR1300, '07 ZX14, '06 FJR1300(2 wks), '12 FJR1300
Volfy
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« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2015, 09:16:15 pm »


There is another constant you forgot, someone, very vocal, posted a bad issue with his bike of that brand so all bikes from that brand are POS. Never mind that most other owners never had that issue. They're just fanboys, their opinions don't count.  Rolleyes
Anecdotal evidence is scientific thus true. 

Actually, it's more like... one rider once had problems with one bike of one mfr from one Continent...

Therefore, ALL bikes made by ALL mfrs from that ENTIRE Continent are POS.
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Cobalt
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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2015, 06:05:26 am »

ahhhhh, Winter.
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2015, 08:46:01 am »


ahhhhh, Winter.

Winter?  What's that?  It was 76F here couple of days ago. Razz
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Cobalt
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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2015, 09:36:47 am »



Winter?  What's that?  It was 76F here couple of days ago. Razz


 

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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2015, 10:54:59 am »




 



Ohhh... now I understand why all the STFU.
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bubba zanetti
2009 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 06 KTM 640 Adventure.
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2015, 12:00:09 pm »


Regarding bike reliability and my comments, there are two constants in motorcycle forums.  First, when there’s a thread about which bike should *I* buy; there’s always the group which chimes in and says, “Well, you should purchase the bike I did.  I like it, therefore you must too.”  That’s going to happen.

The second is when someone chimes in with an issue they’re having on a non-Japanese bike someone generally chimes in saying, “If you would have purchased a Japanese bike, this wouldn’t have happened to you.”  

What’s the point of this kind of posting?  Why kick a person when their down?  Does it make you feel better to tell someone you have a superior quality bike?  I’ve just never got that mentality.  




Once upon a time, we used to call that "Bench Racing". Admittedly, the internet version loses a great deal of the nuances and subtleties along the way.

My dad can beat up your dad. Anyday.  Lol
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Bounce
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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2015, 06:26:07 pm »

Heh.

When I got my Stage 2 and custom tune on my STi, I explained my objective using those terms.

Smoother/flatter curves
Daily Driver
Not wanting bench racing numbers at the cost of reliability/durability.
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FJR-Tips.org

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Silverbird
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« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2015, 09:30:46 am »

First of all, I prefaced my personal experience as worthless, I guess y'all missed that part.

Second, how is my bad experience any less valid than your good one?

As a whole, Japanese bikes are more dependable, durable, and longer lasting than others. Period.
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Roadscum
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« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2015, 10:48:00 am »


First of all, I prefaced my personal experience as worthless, I guess y'all missed that part.

Second, how is my bad experience any less valid than your good one?

As a whole, Japanese bikes are more dependable, durable, and longer lasting than others. Period.


First you comments on your personal experience, then you generalization with, "as a whole".
I don't question you personal experiences and I do not accept your generalization because my personal experience does not support your generalization.

Beside, for me at least, I'll ride the one that makes me smile the most and not be concerned about the experience others have had with that brand..... unless there are obvious design problem like  the CCT on Yamaha FZ-09, R1, and Super Tenere, or the low hanging oil drain plug on the FZ/FJ-09 that can easily get ripped off, or the air box issue on the KTM 1190 Adventures, etc....

Paul
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 10:57:38 am by Roadscum » Logged
Volfy
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« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2015, 01:28:44 pm »

Very few riders buy and ride enough bikes for any "as a whole" trending to overcome individual variances.  I am working on my 11th bike in 4 yrs, and "reliability" weighs little in my consideration.

Not unless I'm looking at 20yr old bikes... or an MV.  Lol
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Windblown
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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2015, 04:52:19 pm »

Folks in your neck of the woods don't poor oil or antifreeze underneath new bikes they see parked in parking lots as a gag?

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I may die with nothing to show for it but there will be a heck of a garage sale.
miles
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Triangles are my favorite shape




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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2015, 09:01:00 pm »


Folks in your neck of the woods don't poor oil or antifreeze underneath new bikes they see parked in parking lots as a gag?






Heck- I do!
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« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2015, 04:19:21 pm »

For those that still think I'm wrong

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1055914
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Volfy
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« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2015, 06:30:26 pm »


For those that still think I'm wrong

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1055914

Consumers Report.  Same people who ranked breakfast cereals by which fattened up lab rats the most. Rolleyes

Pity those who base their buying decisions on that camp fire starter rag.
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Silverbird
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« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2015, 01:17:31 pm »

Still better than the personal experience you guys are presenting.
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Volfy
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« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2015, 05:38:47 pm »


Still better than the personal experience you guys are presenting.

I agree you shouldn't  go by others' opinions and experiences.  You should  go by your own.

That's  what I've always done.  And if I don't  have personal experience, I am not afraid to forge my own.  Bought a bike that needs a little TLC?  Look at it as an opportunity to take a class at the School of Hard Knocks and come out better informed and learned in the end.  Any experience can be either bad of good, depending on how you choose to regard it.

But... nothing wrong with playing safe with the statistics.  That's  why people buy Camrys  and Accords. Lol
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