Planning an Alpine tour

[GvG]

Not always the case in Switzerland, as proven by the tickets that arrived in the mail a couple of weeks after I noticed the speed cameras too late  

...

AFAIK know it's only in Germany and with fixed camera's. In the Netherlands, France and Italy (and Switzerland apparently ) they can face both ways. In Sweden they always face your back, privacy and all that.

[Sport-Touring]

[RBEmerson]

IIRC, Darmstadt (south of Frankfurt, Germany) is supposed to be the blitzer capital. There are silver pylons with red plastic rings all over the place. Our niece lives in the area and I have to fight the natural urge to ...ah... crowd the speed limit (50 km/hr).  

[GvG]

Looking at the Darmstadter Echo they only have 11 Blitzer.
I know at least 25 places in the Netherlands that have more (I think 48 is the most in one city over here).

[PatM]

AFAIK know it's only in Germany and with fixed camera's. In the Netherlands, France and Italy (and Switzerland apparently ) they can face both ways. In Sweden they always face your back, privacy and all that.

In France and Italy, they get you from behind. The ticket comes in the mail without picture. At least the ones I got. 
If you weren't driving that day, you can denounce whoever was using your car/bike.
My Italian friends tell me lots of grannies have been caught speeding... 

[RBEmerson]

Looking at the Darmstadter Echo they only have 11 Blitzer.
I know at least 25 places in the Netherlands that have more (I think 48 is the most in one city over here).

Make that the Offenbach area, NE of Darmstadt. Our niece lives not far from Dietzenbach; the drive, after leaving the A3, becomes increasingly like walking into hostile photographer's studio. Oh my yes.  

[RBEmerson]

Just to close out this thread...

My badly disjointed ride report says it all. This is the executive summary.

The weather was our friend. The riding was work, but I learned helluva lot. I'm finally reasonably good with hairpins, although I'd like to do some more riding to nail the skill(s) down. In a sense, Stelvio is "all that". OTOH, save for its high hairpin count on the Austrian side (48, numbered with signs counting down to the top), it's easier to cope with the 9% grade than some other passes with steeper grades. Finally, given the mob scene at the top, it turns out a lot of people know how to get there. Which means, again, it's less difficult that some hyperbole would suggest. But still isn't a ride in the park. Simple bends with blind finishes are, IMHO, scarier than hairpins, where it's possible to look up (or down) to see what's coming.

Obligatory Stelvio hairpin picture:


Group riding sucks. Either I got into the racers (funny, Edelweiss says "no racing") or into the scary wobblers. There was no middle ground for "wanna ride, but wanna at least rubberneck on occasion". Me to a rider in my (fast) group: "Did you see that [whatever] just now?" Rider: "I was too busy to trying to keep up with the front."  

The morning briefings gave a general shape to the day's ride. In some cases, group A went this way, group B went that way. Changing groups wasn't a problem (i.e., no negations with group leaders needed). Routes usually changed on the fly. The routes I anticipated, when loading a Zumo 660, were a dead loss (my issue, no Edelweiss').

Traffic laws were ...um... honored in the breach. I was "blitzed" on the autobahn between Innsbruck and Landeck - 114 in a 110 km/hr zone. (Good news is there's no from license plate to trace - the bad news is some bureaucrat might just read the big Edelweiss sticker on the front and send the photo and fine notice to Edelweiss. Having a distinctive neon yellow jacket won't help.) Default 50 km/hr town limits, special 40 and 30 km/hr limits (often school or kid-rich areas)... hah. In this, and most other regards, things were lax compared to what was sent in writing.

Group dynamics (at least what I experienced)? Mostly

The hotel was OK - IMHO paid too much. One rider got a local apartment - I want to follow up with him about costs. My wife, b-i-l and s-i-l stayed in a nearby small hotel/pension, paid less and the place was better "value for money" (I stayed there two nights after the trip ended). Germany, Austria, Italy/South Tirol, Switzerland (brief transit) all speak German. Still lots to see in all of the above.

Bikes offered were all over the map, from serious Ducatis to ditto for BMW bikes to tall adventure bikes (BMW and other) to R1200RT. And two H-D baggers. Had I known about the baggers (both riders did well on the passes), I would have pushed hard for the K1600. AFAIK, there were no break-downs. Three drops that I know of (garage-level drop for me while adjusting another bike's bag - my error). I forgot to mention... In the garage, someone dropped their bike against another bike and... at least five bikes want over like dominoes.   No major damage done. Dropper wasn't taken out back and shot.

Use Edelweiss again? No. DIY? Probably. Where? TBD

- - -

R1200RT. Do it again? Not if I can help it. Didn't (and don't) like the "boxer buzz" at any engine speed about 3K (less than 3K the bike didn't much to earn its keep), didn't like very frequent shifts to maintain 3K+. Which is odd; in lower gears it was relatively easy to lift the front wheel with lots of throttle applied. Overall handling and ride were good (see below for computer to control settings). Ergos were good. Side and center stand were designed by someone hating on owners. Computer stuff? Haters gotta hate, I guess. Far too difficult to do simple tasks. Panniers/saddle bags and tank bag included with bike rental.

[GvG]

.....
Traffic laws were ...um... honored in the breach. I was "blitzed" on the autobahn between Innsbruck and Landeck - 114 in a 110 km/hr zone. (Good news is there's no from license plate to trace - the bad news is some bureaucrat might just read the big Edelweiss sticker on the front and send the photo and fine notice to Edelweiss. Having a distinctive neon yellow jacket won't help.)
.....

Uhm......... For you, I seriously hope they will not find you.

Don't speed on the Austrian motorways if the max. speed isn't 130!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chances are it's lower because of the environment. That means any speeding is a criminal offence and fines can go up to €3000.

[RBEmerson]

Oh the things Edelweiss doesn't tell you...  

I got by on at least two other Austrian blitzers (the boxy things, on a pole, with a lens cover and a red light source) that didn't fire, and at least two pillar-types in Italy. The leader swore he knew where all the blitzers are.  

[PatM]

Without a pic of the licence plate, I wouldn't worry about it.
Your view of organized group tours is similar to my experience. It's not easy to fit in a group unless you book with friends.

Thanks for the report.

[RBEmerson]

One thought that crossed my mind was "is there a back camera, too?" I've never seen one in all the time I've driving in Europe. But then I saw cops literally hiding behind a bush to nail unsuspecting bikers charging around in Odenwald. Anything's possible, I guess.

Here's another thought: if most bikes have no front plate, they can't be tracked. I can't imagine the stream of revenue from nailing bikes isn't pursued.  

[PatM]

I don't know about Austria, I got awards from France only. They got me from behind. 106 in a 90 kmh on a Nationale. € 75.
None from Italy, where we weren't really reasonable...  
None also from Switzerland or Austria.

All the roadside radars I saw had rear facing cameras.

The bikes had French plates.

[RBEmerson]

My general experience is either the "box on a pole", "big silver pylons with red plastic bands", smaller boxes on a tripod, or cameras on an overhead framework (on the autobahn, typically in places where the road does something scary than demands speed control). AFAIK, they all get the front plate on any vehicle with one. And there are the cameras to nail people that let the front of their car nose into the intersection box - typically urban.

No awards to date although I thought I was caught doing something fast and bad in a construction zone. A few years later, I'm now inclined to think I didn't get blitzed.  

[RBEmerson]

Sigh... I can't leave this topic alone. Ignore the post - I won't be too offended. Much. Well, maybe a little. Or a lot...  
 
I found a collection of way cool pass videos, from Alexander Thiessen, on YouTube. Instead of lots of wind noise and a little motor noise, he uses a music track. It's good I ...um... I have this v. cool collection of riding music on my phone.   Anyway, look him up by name. I think he's riding a KTM of some sort, but that's based a couple of quick video bits on the top of some passes.

OK - here comes the real obsessional part. It's the line through the hairpins turns.

I think I saw an exception in some video and, personally, on the roads but... almost everybody does the "apex near the mid-point of the turn" line. Which is sooooo wrong.  The turn usual begins by moving to the far (outside) edge of the road. The turn hits the apex of the medial strip. And the turn then continues to the outside of the of the road leaving the hairpin. All of this sets up the rider for meeting oncoming traffic - car, camper, bus, bike, bicycle, hiker. Orrrrr... smacking into the retaining wall (going uphill) or smacking the barrier (if there is one) or spinning out into thin air as the road is cut into a very steep slope - yeah, like the side of a steep mountain. Anyway, this happens coming downhill. And yes there are cars, etc., etc. coming up.

Going uphill... at the approach, move to the center of the road (can't stay on the right unless the bike folds in the middle). Continue beyond the median strip (almost a straight line from the centerline of the road) and then do the turn. Done right, the bike continues to stay inside of the centerline of the road. And there's a look at what's coming up/downhill.

Downhill... move to the right or outside of the road, delay the turn a bit (that quick look thing) and follow the edge of the road around. Easy-peasy. Going up or down, the line can be adjusted, at any point, without smacking walls, cars, etc.

With videos shot by helmet mounted cameras, any helmet motion obvious. Almost without exception, nobody looks at the descending or ascending road approaching the turn. Once above the treeline (no more trees, just low grass and rocks), it's easy to see if anything big is approaching the turn from the other way. In fact, in many of my turns, my focus was well up or down the hill. There are two payoffs here: 1) the surprise factor is reduced, and 2) "you go where you look". Looking at the front tire is ...um... dumb. If the wheel falls off, you'll know that rather quickly. And, "you go where you look" - following the front wheel into a wall or off a cliff. Neither are desirable outcomes.

Below the treeline, things aren't as easy. Sometimes the trees are open enough to get at least a hint about cars, etc. Sometimes not. Plan for being surprised.

Speed and braking... slower (where countersteering no long works) turns need some throttle (speed is life) through the turn. Just a bit or a bit more if the grade is steeper. Use the clutch to modulate the speed as needed - feather the clutch, don't totally disengage (the bike slows, bad things happen - speed is life). If you're going for the brakes, use the rear brake almost entirely. Remember the bike is on an incline. Going up, the weight shifts back; the rear wheel is carrying more load. The front brake isn't to be as helpful. Locking/ABS it won't improve the quality of the day. Do expect a full stop may have to happen (stupid car, bus, or bike in the middle of the road...) and possibly having to roll back to get out of the way. A foot dab into thin isn't much fun.

Downhill, there's so much weight on the front wheel/tire as it is. Jam the front brake and watch the rear wheel try pass the front wheel. This is not a desirable outcome, either. Although the rear wheel won't be as loaded as going up, shift the weight back a bit anyway, and go for the rear brake first and mostly. Additionally, using the front brake changes how the suspension is working. Lots of front brake compresses the forks, and generally makes a mess of things as the bike settles on the change in all of the shocks. Gearing down a gear won't hurt, but dropping back to first, coming downhill, loads the rear tire, leaving less room in the overall "traction budget" for the brake. There's no need for throttle here. After all, the bike is going down a hill...

And that's about it. BTW, all of this works even on "flatland" roads. The "looking in" line isn't the fastest line, but it does leave room for surprises.

Go get 'em in the Alps! (or wherever).

[RBEmerson]

Sigh... I knew I'd forget something. Weight shift.

My ride up Stelvio a train wreck. My turns, that had been working an easier pass (Timmelsjoch), were... trash. I lived to get to the top. The guide said no movement, no nothing. True dat.  

What should have happened isn't hard to do. Going slow enough that the bike is being steered, not countersteered, weight goes outside, outside, outside of the bike. The bike leans over so it rides on the shoulder of the tire not the center. The bike now wants to turn. If anything, the bike can be put over far enough to turn too fast or too much - overturning. If the bike stops moving... oops. Plan ahead, carry some throttle (speed is life), and be ready for a foot down if needed.

Going fast enough for countersteering to take over, weight goes to the inside, inside, inside (even kneedraggers are doing much the same thing). The bike will stand up more, adding "money" to the traction budget. Carry a low balance in the account, hit some gravel, need to tighten the turn, whatever, and the tires could go out (traction balance is overdrawn). In front of a car, etc. it's even worse.

How much weight shift is needed? At low speeds probably nothing more than keeping your body upright will git 'er done. Or maybe lean out a bit. It all depends on the bike. Heading around a curve a mind-numbing speeds, lean into the turn or maybe slide to the inside on the seat. Do kneedragging if you want be thought a... never mind.

Why do all of this? Think of a tire as part of cone. The cone has an ogive shape (think of a bullet or the shape of a nicely shaped pair of ...um... ta-tas). Roll the tire a bit and the tire won't be in a hurry to turn. The more the bike leans, tilting onto more of the tread shoulder, the more the tire wants to turn. Leaning out on a slow speed turn enhances turning. As I said, it's possible to turn more than wanted. Changing the lean, as well as steering, will change the rate of turn.

On fast turns, the traction budget becomes important. Reducing lean keeps the balance up in the budget. Again, tweaking the lean. as well as steering, will control the rate of turn.

Sort out all of this before heading for the passes. Even simple passes like Penserpass will expose your failure to practice the above. Do turns at less than full-on allows playing with the moves with less demand to get things exactly right. The more comfortable the moves feel, the more speed can be used. Carry with you when you return to flatland. It all still works coping with curves and turns from intersections.

[GvG]

.......
Speed and braking... slower (where countersteering no long works) turns need some throttle (speed is life) through the turn. Just a bit or a bit more if the grade is steeper. Use the clutch to modulate the speed as needed - feather the clutch, don't totally disengage (the bike slows, bad things happen - speed is life). If you're going for the brakes, use the rear brake almost entirely. Remember the bike is on an incline. Going up, the weight shifts back; the rear wheel is carrying more load. The front brake isn't to be as helpful. Locking/ABS it won't improve the quality of the day. Do expect a full stop may have to happen (stupid car, bus, or bike in the middle of the road...) and possibly having to roll back to get out of the way. A foot dab into thin isn't much fun.

Downhill, there's so much weight on the front wheel/tire as it is. Jam the front brake and watch the rear wheel try pass the front wheel. This is not a desirable outcome, either. Although the rear wheel won't be as loaded as going up, shift the weight back a bit anyway, and go for the rear brake first and mostly. Additionally, using the front brake changes how the suspension is working. Lots of front brake compresses the forks, and generally makes a mess of things as the bike settles on the change in all of the shocks. Gearing down a gear won't hurt, but dropping back to first, coming downhill, loads the rear tire, leaving less room in the overall "traction budget" for the brake. There's no need for throttle here. After all, the bike is going down a hill...
......

Disagree. Want to stop? Front break it is.

Unless you're talking about slowing down when in a turn. But that's not how I read it.

[PatM]

To anyone who tells me they want to ride the Stelvio, I suggest they practice their U turns in an elevated parking lot.
The road is is basicaly that, with a great view, straight stetches with tight U turns known as tornenti and bonus, a zoo on top, on weekends.  

[RBEmerson]

No and yes.

The no part:
Going uphill, there's a distinct chance of seeing the front lock up or close to it. If the steering is cocked around, the front tire washes out, followed by a test of the helmet and AGATT padding. BTDT in gravel. Padding worked just fine, thanks. Bike went down (well, there's surprise), the saddle bag broke off, mount broke, and... I don't to talk about it. The weight's more in the back. The overall balance of the bike changes, calling for adjusting the turn, which may (clear road) or may not (cars, etc.) be a viable option.

Going downhill, more of the weight is on the front wheel. Get into the front brakes and the front suspension will probably move close to the end of compression (assuming progressive springs or shocks). The less-weighted back wheel is free to keep moving. Around a pivot point: the steering stem. This is Not Good. Obviously rear end swapping isn't going to happen every time but... happen it does.

The yes part:
All of that said, if the braking isn't getting done fast enough, of course the other (front) brake is needed. But remember that comes at a price. As with much in this life, ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice.

HTH  

[RBEmerson]

To anyone who tells me they want to ride the Stelvio, I suggest they practice their U turns in an elevated parking lot.
The road is is basicaly that, with a great view, straight stetches with tight U turns known as tornenti and bonus, a zoo on top, on weekends.  

Good point. Finding a garage with really good Kehren (This is southern Tirol, where Italian is out numbered by German, about 2:1 - and the locals use Stilfserjoch a lot) is probably a challenge, but if one can be found, go for it! However, it's right turns that are the challenge. They're the ones with the shortest radius. Left turns have an appreciably greater radius.

The circus is on the weekends? It all just gets bigger and crazier. This is on a Thursday and parking was a challenge even then.

[GvG]

The rear brake as a way for slowing down is still only for smaller adjustments, mainly in the corners.
Your front break still works best for stopping fastest. The ABS on my rear brake starts intervening way before the ABS on my front brakes, both uphill and downhill. It's also a single brake with less feel and not really powerful, at least compared to the front brakes on my bike.

The geometry of ones bike is probably also a factor here, but if I were to use my rear breaks more/heavier than my front brakes (in the mountains or not) I'd be in serious trouble in no time.

[RBEmerson]

I stand by what I said. I hope the explanations are clear enough. If not, I'll be happy to try to fill in any parts that may be unclear.

As always, "ride your own ride".