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Topic: Brake Bleeding... What am I doing wrong?  (Read 16537 times)

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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2006, 02:30:14 pm »




as soon as the master goes dry, the brakes stop working.  There is no air in any of the valving for the ABS modulator, whatever type it is.  The only time it would even been feasible would be if you had a leak at the modulator.  Even if you had a leak at the caliper, the same thing would happen, the master would go drop and the brakes would no longer work, which would prevent the ABS from engaging.

The only thing actuating the modulator does, is get you the tiny tiny bit of "old" fluid out of it.

So to reiterate, if you are getting air out of the system, it will never be in the ABS modulator itself.  

Just because there's a procedure in the manual, doesn't mean its necessary


If there is a leak in the system, at a lower point than the ABS modulator, won't air get in there then?  Or even with an empty reservoir, isn't the master cylinder forcing air into the system?

I'm not trying to sound like a smartass, just trying to increase my knowledge of how these systems work.
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2006, 02:36:00 pm »

the modulator in its normal state (not modulating) is completely sealed off from the system.  All abs systems, no matter how they modulate the brake, must leave the system closed when not operating.  If it wasn't sealed off from the system, then the brakes wouldn't work
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2006, 08:00:25 am »


I'm wondering if it has something to do with the ABS..  

2001 BMW F650GS Trying to bleed the rear brakes


Hell yes!!!
If your bike has ABS brakes then all i can say is that you better have access to a compressor and own a pneumatic brake bleeder.
Before this forum died i had a thread going in the BMW forum called appropriately
"Brake Bleeding Hell".
Most goddamn frustrating brake bleeding job i have ever done.

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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2006, 12:19:48 pm »

I brought it in to the local BMW dealership to get the 65 point "used bike" inspection since I don't know what I'm looking for yet and mentioned the brakes.  He came out and looked at it and said the pads needed changing first off, then hit the brake pedal and said something to the effect that I didn't have ANY rear brake.  He's going to call me later about it.  I'll keep you guys posted.
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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2006, 07:04:20 pm »

Okay..  I'm a dumbass apparently.  After taking the cap off the brake fluid resivoir there's another rubber piece that needs to come up to actually put brake fluid in...  Nuts  I was just filling it on top of the rubber thing because I couldn't see down further into the thing to realize it was a 2nd cover.  I thought it filled up awfully fast..  Lol *sigh*

So my other problem is that I have a leak in my brake line going from the master cylinder to the caliper.  They're ordering the hose and it should be in on Thursday.
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2006, 09:30:38 pm »


Okay..  I'm a dumbass apparently.  After taking the cap off the brake fluid resivoir there's another rubber piece that needs to come up to actually put brake fluid in...  Nuts  I was just filling it on top of the rubber thing because I couldn't see down further into the thing to realize it was a 2nd cover.  I thought it filled up awfully fast..  Lol *sigh*

So my other problem is that I have a leak in my brake line going from the master cylinder to the caliper.  They're ordering the hose and it should be in on Thursday.


THATS A GOOD ONE!  I don't know if I can top that,BUT....

I tried bleeding a rear caliper once and the brake  refused
to work well;
until I noticed I had TWO bleeder screws on the caliper.
The second one was on the backside.
One more try on each screw did it.

My friend says "even a BLIND pig finds an acorn once in awhile"
I told him acorns are bigger than bleed screws.
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« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2006, 07:42:16 am »


Okay..  I'm a dumbass apparently.  After taking the cap off the brake fluid resivoir there's another rubber piece that needs to come up to actually put brake fluid in...  Nuts  I was just filling it on top of the rubber thing because I couldn't see down further into the thing to realize it was a 2nd cover.  I thought it filled up awfully fast..  Lol *sigh*

So my other problem is that I have a leak in my brake line going from the master cylinder to the caliper.  They're ordering the hose and it should be in on Thursday.


If your BMW is an ABS model then the dealer will absolutely have to use a pneumatic bleeder because once the system is opened up to the atmosphere there is no other way to get that air out of that complex system.
However the first time you have to get on your brakes in the rain for all they are worth you will thank BMW for putting that complex system on that bike. Thumbsup
But it is a pain in the ass to work on. Sad

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« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2006, 10:12:31 pm »

New bikes have so many areas for air to hide in the lines, I have resorted to reverse bleeding and this has worked for me.

Only problem is you have to have a resevoir cap to butcher, drill it and thread a bleeder to it with a tube to a jar so you don't get fluid everywhere.
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2006, 12:11:07 am »




Ooh.. that's something I didn't think of...  I'll do that.  Someone in the other thread suggested putting teflon tape under the bleeder valve too and I think I may need to do that as well.  Thanks for all the help guys.


DO NOT USE TEFLON TAPE ON ANY BRAKE SYSTEM FITTINGS.....IT CAN KILL YOU.

To bleed your brake system that is now full of air, take an empty milk jug and make a hole near the neck to tightly accommodate a piece of flexible tubing that fits on the bleeder nut. Put your shop vac suction hose into the neck of the milk jug. Attach the tubing to the bleeder nut. Remove all brake fluid from the reservoir. Inspect the bottom of the reservoir for debris and crud which may be blocking the fluid port. Clean the reservoir with an appropriate cleaner and remove all cleaner. Fill the clean reservoir with DOT4. Turn on the vac and open the bleeder nut slightly watching the fluid level in the reservoir. Continue to refill the reservoir with fresh DOT4 until you have completely exchanged at least one reservoir of DOT4. Snug the bleeder nut and button everything back up. And do not let your brake fluid run dry ever again or we'll be reading about you in the obits.
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2006, 12:37:38 am »

most things involving brakes can kill you Bigsmile

Teflon tape is not only dangerous in a brake system, its also completely pointless.  Bleeders seal at the flare on the end of the bleeder screw seating, the threads do nothing but apply tension to the flare.  Putting teflon on the threads just makes you feel better.  

The common belief that air snakes past the threads is completely false.  you do not rely on "seeing" air bubbles using a mity-vac or other such devices, to decide if all the air is out.  

Its another reason why I don't use such devices for bleeding systems.   I know it goes against the grain of many on bike forums, but IMO, such miracle devices create more problems than they solve.  They don't speed up the bleeding process.  They do not remove air from the system "better".  A wrench and a firm understanding of how the system works will do way better any day than magical tools.
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2006, 08:46:59 am »

Perhaps that is so Bob while brake bleeding a m/c that uses a standard hydraulic brake system but i will tell you in no uncertain terms that if a bike has ABS brakes like my BMW K75S and the system gets air into it you will bleed that thing until the second coming and you still wont get the air out of the system unless you do use a strong vacuum method.
And a hand held MityVac wont get it done either.
A compressor hooked up to a pneumatic MityVac will though.


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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2006, 08:55:22 am »

I'll respectfully disagree. I've replaced the master cylinder on my oilhead with ABS. I completely drained the system, replaced it and filled it up again. I use a mityvac: handheld. It worked fine as it has on my TDI VW, my Montero and every other vehicle I've owned over the last 10+ years.

Now the oilhead did take some tapping here and there, cracking the banjo bolt at the master cylinder, but with patience and feel, it was back to normal inside of an hour.

Please keep in mind that I'm not disagreeing that you had trouble. I've never done a K75. I'm disagreeing that every vehicle with ABS is difficult.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 09:51:39 am by photomd » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2006, 01:01:21 pm »

I didn't say they don't work.  I said they do nothing "better"
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2006, 01:04:58 pm »

UB...I wasn't disagree with you. I disagree that all ABS vehicles are a pain. I think that most methods work fine: pump the brakes, mityvacs, syringes, pneumatic pumps, whatever.

I wasn't clear. I use a mityvac 'cause it's easier as I usually don't have a helper.
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2006, 05:24:11 pm »




DO NOT USE TEFLON TAPE ON ANY BRAKE SYSTEM FITTINGS.....IT CAN KILL YOU.

To bleed your brake system that is now full of air, take an empty milk jug and make a hole near the neck to tightly accommodate a piece of flexible tubing that fits on the bleeder nut. Put your shop vac suction hose into the neck of the milk jug. Attach the tubing to the bleeder nut. Remove all brake fluid from the reservoir. Inspect the bottom of the reservoir for debris and crud which may be blocking the fluid port. Clean the reservoir with an appropriate cleaner and remove all cleaner. Fill the clean reservoir with DOT4. Turn on the vac and open the bleeder nut slightly watching the fluid level in the reservoir. Continue to refill the reservoir with fresh DOT4 until you have completely exchanged at least one reservoir of DOT4. Snug the bleeder nut and button everything back up. And do not let your brake fluid run dry ever again or we'll be reading about you in the obits.


A little trick that will help expedite the process is smearing a dab of wheel bearing grease on the outside perimeter of the bleeder screw threads right where air can enter in.  The biggest PITA with a vacuum bleeder is air getting pulled in thru the threads and you sit there wondering if all the bubbles heading towards the vacuum source are doing anything.   Also, don't remove the vacuum source until you have tightened the bleeder screw.  

I fabbed up an itty bitty pressure plate that seals over the top of most motorcycle master cylinder reservoirs. Which allows me to attach a pressure vessel that constantly keeps fresh fluid pumped into the M/C at approx 5~10 psi depending on what fancies me.  Makes a thorough flush very quick.
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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2006, 06:48:20 pm »


I fabbed up an itty bitty pressure plate that seals over the top of most motorcycle master cylinder reservoirs. Which allows me to attach a pressure vessel that constantly keeps fresh fluid pumped into the M/C at approx 5~10 psi depending on what fancies me.  Makes a thorough flush very quick.


Well since you're macGyver I bet you could have made one out of chewing gum and a straw..   Lol

I should get my bike back again tonight..  Total, for the the 65 pt check and the hose + installation is $290.  I'm going to e-mail the guy who sold me the bike and see if I can't get him to refund a bit of my money as this was obviously a problem before I got the bike from him.
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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2006, 08:44:03 pm »

When bleeding with vacuum through the bleeder nut, you'll always get some air bubbles.
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 11:47:55 pm »

Quote

When bleeding with vacuum through the bleeder nut, you'll always get some air bubbles.  


Use the grease, it's your friend.  Inlove
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 11:49:45 pm by MacGyver » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2006, 08:22:19 pm »


Okay..  I'm a dumbass apparently.  After taking the cap off the brake fluid resivoir there's another rubber piece that needs to come up to actually put brake fluid in...  Nuts  I was just filling it on top of the rubber thing because I couldn't see down further into the thing to realize it was a 2nd cover.  I thought it filled up awfully fast..  Lol *sigh*

So my other problem is that I have a leak in my brake line going from the master cylinder to the caliper.  They're ordering the hose and it should be in on Thursday.


 Lol Lol Lol  I was following this thread from the beginning to see how it ended and hopefully learn something along the way.  I certainly didn't see that coming!  That's nothing short of hilarious.  

P.S.  I can make fun b/c I've done things equally as stupid.  
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« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2007, 05:20:51 pm »

I've never had a master cylinder on anything with a 2nd cover before.  My rear brake feels much better now and actually slows me down..  Lol
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