How would you restructure the Big 3?

[zer0netgain]

Remember, Detriot isn't in trouble for the reasons many think. Detroit is in trouble because:

People are in debt beyond the ability to borrow or pay.

Loan money is tight.

Some people are losing their jobs.

That alone sums up the problem in every industry in America.

We never needed products that MUST be replaced every 5 years or less.  That was wasteful both environmentally and economically, but so long as you keep the wheel turning, nobody thinks too much about it.

The first time the job market or economy takes a hit, people cut out unnecessary spending...this, in turn, hits the industries that depend on people buying shit they don't really need.

If people bought a new car ONLY when they absolutely NEEDED one, we could cut to 10% of current production to meet the need.

So much production was based on wasteful spending habits.

[Sport-Touring]

[FBRR]

"If people bought a new car ONLY when they absolutely NEEDED one, we could cut to 10% of current production to meet the need.

So much production was based on wasteful spending habits."

"Wasteful" of course as defined by WHO! ( Well comrade Brother are all of your clothes worn out before you wastefully buy more? You are most likely buying clothes that could be more properly put to use by someone that has more need.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)")

To say  NOTHING of those pesky, but Necessary Motorcycles!!

[FBRR]

Problem of the big three!

We in the industry have been told for years  Diversity "is our biggest assest".
Let's see the Germans and Japanesse are far less "diverse" than we are.
I bet their concern at promotion time is COMPETENCE, without regard to diversity.

Prehaps we should pay a little more attention to competence before "diversity".

[Snowbird]

Problem of the big three!

We in the industry have been told for years  Diversity "is our biggest assest".
Let's see the Germans and Japanesse are far less "diverse" than we are.
I bet their concern at promotion time is COMPETENCE, without regard to diversity.

Prehaps we should pay a little more attention to competence before "diversity".

The Germans were so freekin' COMPETENT when they bought Chrysler, ruining Chrysler and perhaps mortally damaging themselves.

Here's a thought: Can the US government 'bail-out' the big three without running afoul of the WTO?

[zer0netgain]

"Wasteful" of course as defined by WHO! ( Well comrade Brother are all of your clothes worn out before you wastefully buy more? You are most likely buying clothes that could be more properly put to use by someone that has more need.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)")

To say  NOTHING of those pesky, but Necessary Motorcycles!!

Don't go all silly on me.  You know what I mean.

There is no reason why a car (with proper maintenance) can't go 200,000 miles or more before it needs replacement.  Some cars are designed to crap out before 100,000 miles.

Marketing tells us to get a new car every 3 years, or lease the car so you get a new one every 3 years.

None of that is necessary.  A disposable society has gotten us where we are now.  Remember electronic repair shops?  I do.  They died when cheap shit from overseas was cheaper to replace than fix.  So, all your toxic crap goes into a landfill because fixing it and keeping it running costs more.

If we were smarter about the long term effect of our choices, we'd be facing a much smaller crisis in many areas today.

[Baz]

The Germans were so freekin' COMPETENT when they bought Chrysler, ruining Chrysler and perhaps mortally damaging themselves.

Here's a thought: Can the US government 'bail-out' the big three without running afoul of the WTO?

It would be doubtful. Even giving them loans puts them at an advantage over their competitors that don't have that option. I am sure someone would have a case.

[Baz]

It looks as though they received some cash....



15 bn fund for Big Three agreed upon by U.S. Congress
By Justin Couture, Sympatico/MSN Autos

Last week was rather stressful for the Big Three automakers. Between the corporate jet fiasco, revised restructuring proposals, $1 salaries, Chrysler consulting bankruptcy firm Jones Day (just in case), and a CNN poll suggesting that some 61 per cent of Americans do not favour a federal bailout, Democratic leaders and the White House have come to a preliminary agreement on the subject.

Although Ford, Chrysler and General Motors were seeking to receive $34 bn in assistance, Congress reached an agreement on a sum: $15 bn. This figure is a bit more than what Chrysler and GM outlined would be necessary to keep them afloat into the first quarter of the new year.

Chrysler and General Motors need about $11 bn to keep afloat through the first quarter of 2009, when it is expected that the Big Three will reconvene in Washington to discuss the situation with the Obama administration. Provided that neither Chrysler or GM file for bankruptcy, Ford wouldn’t require any assistance.

There are some important things to note with this announcement. Firstly, the $15 bn loan has yet to be approved; It will be voted on by senators this coming Tuesday.

Secondly, the funding has stipulations - Democratic senator and house speaker Nancy Pelosi said that the money shouldn’t come from the $700 bn allotted for financial institutions, but from a $25 bn fund that was approved - but not yet delivered - by the Bush administration this past September for producing more fuel efficient vehicles. Furthermore, the $15 bn would need to be repaid, “in a matter of weeks.”

[Redfox]

Imagine! Me posting in a car thread as I usually care so little about cars. I actually recently said something like " and now they want to take my tax money and give it to companies who can't even run thier own businesses. They will just squander it like they did their own money followed up by a round of nice bonuses for themselves."

Then my local Saturn dealer closed. Yup Its gone and its building is occupied by the Toyota shop that once made me so angry I had to threaten to call the cops to get my car keys back, after I went in there to look at cars. I'm on my third Saturn after 15 years and a great many trouble free miles.
So what happened to the thirty odd people that worked there?
What about the nice sales folks who never hammered me (or stole my keys and made me wait in a cubicle) but helped me get the car I wanted?
What about the receptionist who liked to travel and always was ready to chat?
What about the guy who always gave a little extra cleaning my car after an oil change? He had three kids, I hope they are ok.
What about the older gentleman who spent a little extra time with me to explain that I might soon need a serpentine belt and who clued me in on what to expect before it failed? (He liked sitting at third base while watching a Baysox game.) Theres a whole lot of other people looking for work right now, I hope they all can find something.
On one hand I think Maybe Saturn and GM are so badly managed they should die a natural death in these hard times.
On the other I remember I once toured the old Saturn factory in Tenn.
The much maligned Union workers had hand lettered signs that said "Thanks for being our customers, we love you"
No doubt cars were no more than commodities to be marketed in every possible way through every possible channel. Still, people work there, I read somewhere one in ten of us do.
Sure they need to lose stupid management and both dealership and union contracts need to be restructured but the bottom line is folks just aren't buying cars. Maybe instead we need to assist the credit markets so folks can buy cars. Or maybe even better create some jobs.  

[Baz]

Saturn's dead Red.

In their proposal of things to come GM stated that Pontiac, Saturn & Saab will all be gone.

You are so right though. It's never a nice thing to see someone thrown out of their livelyhoods like in this case.

[rockinjc]

Yo, I'm out of money... can I get some from you seeing how we spent all that money lobbing and on your campaign?


http://consumerist.com/5102443/auto-makers-going-out-of-business-but-still-have-enough-money-to-lobby-congress

[bomber]

there's some good ideas, here -- but, surely, I'm not the only one that's a little leery of congress telling anyone, in detail, how to run a business?

that the Big Three have screwed the pooch is true (painfully so) -- blaming them for selling the bloated pigs many Americans call automobiles, however -- they've been seeling what people have been buying . . . . . the Big Three can re-structure all they want, but it's gonna take a big change in the marketplace for that re-structuring to be successful -- Detroit only owns half the equation.

[Redfox]

Saturn's dead Red.


Shoot now I own a perfectly good low mileage car in great shape that no one will service and has no value.
Guess I better learn how to change brake pads.

[Global Rider]

Fire all of the middle and upper level management.

Based on past history, they have no clue what they're doing.

[UFO]

Number one, the UAW did NOT design any cars.  If you ever worked for a living doing physical labor you wouldn't make stupid comments like "glorified Jiffy Lube worker."  I worked in steel mills as a young man and know a lot about assembly line work.  I'm also a computer geek.  I find it ludicrous for coders to call themselves "software engineers" too.  I truly remember days when I would come home with my ass dragging.  Never happened with computer work.  Why is it the "entrepreneurs" and white collar folks can price fix, steal retirement funds, destroy our economy through uncontrolled hedge funds and swaps yet labor can't collective bargain???  Is just that they are an easy target to distract from the true criminals in this mess we are in.

 

If you watched the interview this morning on the Today show with the head of the UAW union you'd know why they have taken unionization to the extreme and f'ed it up.

[bomber]

Seriously, there is something wrong with the rate of fuel tax collection when bridges fall down with cars on them!!

Just a data point, Snow -- if you're referring to that bridge in Minnesota, turns out that the failure was one at the design stage, not construction or inspection or maintenance . . . . . .

Not arguing with you main points, btw (as I agree with many of them) -- the bridge collapse has turned into a rallying cry for all the wrong reasons . . . .

[Global Rider]

If you watched the interview this morning on the Today show with the head of the UAW union you'd know why they have taken unionization to the extreme and f'ed it up.

I believe that Nissan, Toyota and Honda are still union-free in North America. The workers were always satisfied and they are selling cars.

Really...how much are they paying unskilled labor to activate an air ratchet at the big 3?

[sprint_st]

If you watched the interview this morning on the Today show with the head of the UAW union you'd know why they have taken unionization to the extreme and f'ed it up.

I did watch it.  What did you see that made you come to ANY conclusion what so ever about anything?  He is in the middle of negotiations which some of the most crooked people on the planet and you expect him to undermine the position of all the workers just to make Merideth Fierro smile?   The point is that you and far too many people buy the anti-union BS.  Unions very well may have outlived their usefulness, but blaming UAW for the wreck is like saying the passengers at fault for the high death toll in an airplane crash.   Again, I say if you want to know who is at fault you can't remove the guy you see in mirror from the equation.  In Europe and places like Japan, labor, management and government work together to make a better economy.  Americans see a socialist boogy man behind every tree when you say things like that.  The govt said we had to save the banks and Wall Street by pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into institutions that caused the problem through their own greed.  Why couldn't the Federal Reserve let those banks "reorganize" and provide the money directly, OH NO, that's socialism.  Talk all your shit, but if you look at all the jobs dependent on the Big 3 and what happens if they go under, you better start looking for soup kitchens yourself.  Just giving them buckets of cash won't work, but if your worried about the Fed's making rules for the Big 3, what is YOUR alternative.  It's easy to find problems, but a bitch to solve them.

[Bodhi]

You have the distinction of being able to pick some of the worst cars ever produced.

I'm surprised you did not have a Renault LeCar.

Or a Toyota Corrode-a. (like mine.)

Datsun 280Z. (Was it Nissan by then?)

Various-- or any-- Mitsubishis.

Isuzu Trooper with the cracking cylinder heads.

My wife had a Toyota "Corrode-a" with 196k miles on it when I met her. She sold it to some student who probably is still driving it.

I had a Nissan 280Z with over 120k miles on it that I sold after I got married because I needed a four-seater. I'll bet it is still running fine.

I cannot recall any American-made car I ever owned - or my dad or any of my sibblings ever owned, other than my brother's Oldsmobile 88 (he traded it in for a new Mercedes at around 150k miles after he finished law school) that ever got more than 60k miles without requiring a new engine or transmission. It was a common well-known strategy for American cars to be designed to break down by the time the loan was paid off. It was only Japanese cars lasting well over 100k that prompted American carmakers to try to build cars that lasted more than five years or 60k miles.

[bomber]

Seems to me that blaming the UAW for the situation in Detroit is like blaming a spoiled child for being spoiled -- hell, SOMEone gave em all the goodies . . . .. .

yeah, I know, simplistic, but still . . . . .

[Walker]

"If people bought a new car ONLY when they absolutely NEEDED one, we could cut to 10% of current production to meet the need.

So much production was based on wasteful spending habits."

"Wasteful" of course as defined by WHO! ( Well comrade Brother are all of your clothes worn out before you wastefully buy more? You are most likely buying clothes that could be more properly put to use by someone that has more need.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)")

To say  NOTHING of those pesky, but Necessary Motorcycles!!

I understand your point, I really do.  The 'free market economy' needs to be based on consumer freedom and choice.  HOWEVER, I believe the OP's point was that cars are no longer manufactured to be durable consumer goods.  Probably the last durable car made is my MB 300E, which I fully expect to get more than half a million miles from.  Nowadays, cars are made to be disposable.

I only hope that Chrysler doesn't drag Daimler down with it.