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Topic: Sportbikes are not beginner bikes  (Read 114249 times)

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Flat-Out

« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2007, 05:21:34 pm »

Why do people think they have the right to tell other people what to ride with such religious fervour?!!?

Good advice is one thing but the young asshats who want the biggest and best sportbike are not going to listen to the above kind of lecturing anyhow.

The mature and responsible person will likely be fine on any bike regardless.

The sermons above aren't really going to affect any of the new sportbikers as they will fall on deaf ears -- why spend so much effort preaching to the converted?!?!?!

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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2007, 10:43:17 pm »


I get really tired of this false argument. Acceleration is no a factor in most accidents.


+1  I think that the difference in dynamics/responsiveness between a "standard" and a SS bike of any displacement is more significant than the difference in displacement between a 600 and a liter bike, in terms of hazard for a beginning rider.  Most of the incidents I hear of aren't outside the performance envelope of any motorcycle.

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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2007, 02:26:13 pm »


Why do people think they have the right to tell other people what to ride with such religious fervour?!!?

Good advice is one thing but the young asshats who want the biggest and best sportbike are not going to listen to the above kind of lecturing anyhow.

The mature and responsible person will likely be fine on any bike regardless.

The sermons above aren't really going to affect any of the new sportbikers as they will fall on deaf ears -- why spend so much effort preaching to the converted?!?!?!

I'm not telling anyone what to ride, I'm suggesting a new rider start on an appropriate bike--and I'm going on to describe what makes a bike appropriate, as well as giving my reasoning.  People are free to disagree, or even argue with me.

I agree, many won't listen, but a few may find my comments informative.

As to "maturity" and "responsibility," yes they are by far the largest part of the picture.  But starting on an inappropriate bike isn't so much dangerous as more difficult--most new riders will learn more about bike control on a GS500 than an R1 in the same amount of time, no matter how "mature and responsible" they are.
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2007, 09:56:27 pm »


Why do people think they have the right to tell other people what to ride with such religious fervour?!!?

Good advice is one thing but the young asshats who want the biggest and best sportbike are not going to listen to the above kind of lecturing anyhow.

The mature and responsible person will likely be fine on any bike regardless.

The sermons above aren't really going to affect any of the new sportbikers as they will fall on deaf ears -- why spend so much effort preaching to the converted?!?!?!





WOW, im a noob to riding and i wanted a sport bike but after reading on here and few other sites i see where im in the wrong and i thank you for the post it opened my eyes that i was headed down the wrong path for the wrong reasons..

Mitch


Enough said. I've seen this happen many times, and I take pride that I've been a part of saving riders' asses. Please take your bad attitude outta my friggin' thread! If you don't want to help, that's fine. Just walk away.
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Flat-Out

« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2007, 10:37:48 am »

No  Twofinger -- My opinions are just as valid as yours.

I have never stated that sport bikes are good bikes to start on -- I'm just always amused by these mother hen arguments.
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 10:47:54 am »

Then don't make any, and stay out of the beginner forum altogether. It's where the mother hens hang out.
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Flat-Out

« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 10:57:25 am »

OK dad   Rolleyes
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2007, 11:03:33 am »


Good advice is one thing but the young asshats who want the biggest and best sportbike are not going to listen to the above kind of lecturing anyhow.


We lecture them in the hopes they'll grow up to be adult asshats.
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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2007, 01:56:45 pm »


No  Twofinger -- My opinions are just as valid as yours.

I have never stated that sport bikes are good bikes to start on -- I'm just always amused by these mother hen arguments.


Okay, now I'm confused.  So you agree that sport bikes are not good beginner bikes, but you take issue with actually saying so?  

The nature of a good bike to learn on is (correct me if I'm wrong) not under debate here.  We have track schools recommending SV650s, there's American Supercamp with it's XR100s, and every single MSF course out there on little 250 tiddlers.  Less-aggressive, neutral-handling, even less-powerful bikes make better learning tools.  Agreed?  Good.  

This presumes, of course, that a new rider's primary goal should be the development of good riding skills.  Yes, having fun is also important (it's why we do this, of course), but I'm pretty sure we're all also interested interested in getting better, or at least maintaining some kind of minimum skill level.  Am I off here?  Because that's an assumption in the main article.  

Following from that, we presume that it is desirable to have the motorcycle population as a whole be skilled and, to some extent, safe.  This is a social engineering argument, and flies in the face of traditional American values like autonomy and rugged individualism.  On the other hand, it acknowledges the simple truth that things like helmet laws, top speed limiters, insurance premiums and health insurance coverage are all based on group statistics, but applied to individuals.  Sad, perhaps, and not ideal, but true.  

But lastly we have the hand-wringing that follows impetuous youth with more cash than sense and more style than skill.  Here is where opinions divide.  Yes, to some extent Flat-Out is right: you cannot convince kids of anything, least of all of their own lack of sense.  On the other hand, beginners come in all stripes, from red smear in training to MSF poster child.  The vast majority land somewhere in the middle.  Some of those might read ST.N once in a while.  And if one agrees with the preceding points, then it makes sense that we present the notion that perhaps a 150-hp plastic-wrapped rocket on wheels may not be ideal for their first few clutch-shuddering miles.  Maybe a few listen.  And then it's worth the posting.  

Good enough?

Dave

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Flat-Out

« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2007, 03:54:21 pm »

naahhh I'm still all for thinning the herd
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2007, 01:04:52 pm »


naahhh I'm still all for thinning the herd


Flat-Out, I agree with you, thining the herd seems much easier.

For the rest of you I have some trival techincalities.
your title says sport bikes are not for beginner's but you are recommending sport bikes, that doesn't make much senes.

EX250s and 500s are sportbikes
GS500s and SVs are sportbikes

If it has more than 100hp it is usually called a SuperSport.

I'm guessing none of you have tried riding a 120hp hardtail chopper thing? In my oppinion they are worse for beginners than the SS bikes.
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2007, 05:03:43 pm »

Splitting semantic hairs, are we?  Razz

I agree, though. There are other types of bikes that beginners shouldn't ride.
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2007, 11:28:09 pm »


For the rest of you I have some trival techincalities.
your title says sport bikes are not for beginner's but you are recommending sport bikes, that doesn't make much senes.

EX250s and 500s are sportbikes
GS500s and SVs are sportbikes

If it has more than 100hp it is usually called a SuperSport.

I'm guessing none of you have tried riding a 120hp hardtail chopper thing? In my oppinion they are worse for beginners than the SS bikes.

Actually, I'd refer to the Ninja 250, 500, and 650 as "standards," which also goes for the GS500 and SV650.  These bikes all have handlebars (as opposed to clip-ons) and quite neutral seating positions, upright with a slight forward lean and footpegs just under the thighs or butt.  They also all feature tractable engines tuned for broad midrange powerbands, which are easier for newbies to handle.

Just because a bike has fairings on it doesn't make it a sportbike.  IMO, a sportbike has a pronounced forward lean, with clip-on bars and more or less rearset pegs.  You can read in my first post in this thread why I don't think this is a good position for newbies.  Sportbike engines also often (but not always!) have a peaky powerband, biased to the top of the rev range where they deliver a "rush" of power, often to the detriment of midrange tractability.

And while I've never ridden "a 120hp hardtail chopper thing," I have ridden a few large and powerful cruisers, and I fully agree they are NOT suitable for learning on--as I wrote in my earlier post, "these bikes are just as poor for learning on as a supersport--if they have forward controls and pull-back bars, I'd argue they're even worse for slow-speed control than sportbikes."  I would certainly never recommend a "chopper" to learn on (I'm not even all that keen on the Honda Rebel, often considered the quintessential beginner bike, because it leans too far to the cruiser side of the spectrum IMO).


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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2007, 03:03:53 pm »


Splitting semantic hairs, are we?  Razz

I agree, though. There are other types of bikes that beginners shouldn't ride.


 Bigsmile somebody has to give'm split ends.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2007, 03:12:14 pm »



Actually, I'd refer to the Ninja 250, 500, and 650 as "standards," which also goes for the GS500 and SV650.  These bikes all have handlebars (as opposed to clip-ons) and quite neutral seating positions, upright with a slight forward lean and footpegs just under the thighs or butt.  They also all feature tractable engines tuned for broad midrange powerbands, which are easier for newbies to handle.

Just because a bike has fairings on it doesn't make it a sportbike.  IMO, a sportbike has a pronounced forward lean, with clip-on bars and more or less rearset pegs.  You can read in my first post in this thread why I don't think this is a good position for newbies.  Sportbike engines also often (but not always!) have a peaky powerband, biased to the top of the rev range where they deliver a "rush" of power, often to the detriment of midrange tractability.

And while I've never ridden "a 120hp hardtail chopper thing," I have ridden a few large and powerful cruisers, and I fully agree they are NOT suitable for learning on--as I wrote in my earlier post, "these bikes are just as poor for learning on as a supersport--if they have forward controls and pull-back bars, I'd argue they're even worse for slow-speed control than sportbikes."  I would certainly never recommend a "chopper" to learn on (I'm not even all that keen on the Honda Rebel, often considered the quintessential beginner bike, because it leans too far to the cruiser side of the spectrum IMO).





I'll only throw one quick thing in.

Calling an EX, SV, or GS a standard is like calling a 70's Cafe Racer a standard, yes there are some similarites handle bars instead of clip-ons but it is still a sport bike at heart. However in the same breath I agree with you that this is meerly left to personal interpretation, I just chose to follow what Kawasaki called it.

For a starter bike I like the idea of a dual sport, they are extremely forgiving and fun. One of their biggest advantages is the fact that you can practice on dirt where are no cars to worry about and virtually no worry of hurting it if you fall.
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2007, 03:05:58 am »


Calling an EX, SV, or GS a standard is like calling a 70's Cafe Racer a standard, yes there are some similarites handle bars instead of clip-ons but it is still a sport bike at heart. However in the same breath I agree with you that this is meerly left to personal interpretation, I just chose to follow what Kawasaki called it.

Hmmm...when I think of "Cafe raers," I think of bikes with "Clubman" bars--which put the grips as low and forward as clip-ons--and rearset pegs...two of the main ingredients of the sportbike riding position as I described it.  But I agree about how the manufacturers rate their bikes...hell, at the local Honda place a few years ago I was told that Honda classifies the 599 as a "sportbike!"


For a starter bike I like the idea of a dual sport, they are extremely forgiving and fun.

I agree completely here.   Dual sports usually have the most neutral, "standard" seating position of all--specifically because that is the position best suited for controlling the bike at slower speeds, and dual-sports are intended for use in situations where slow-speed bike control is important.  Dual sports are also good for learning mechanics...



(messy, wasn't I?)
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2007, 01:51:22 pm »

that looks a lot like my suzuki that is sitting in the barn.

Another point about the dual sport is that they can accelorate very quickly at low speed keeping the new rider content. They are also more easily controlled with only throttle input since they are usually single cyclinder (their are a few twins), inexpensive, and easy to pick up when they fall.
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2007, 09:50:01 am »


naahhh I'm still all for thinning the herd


this is the type of comment that I have an issue with. Maybe I just value life a little more. Maybe I think about if/when one of my friends or family asks a question of an experienced group on a subject they are not well versed in, that they would get some good constructive advice. This sort of comments comes off as "well that dipshit will be dead soon, so we won't have to deal with him anymore". Nice.

BUT ... I wonder if there is a similar article that goes into some length about the benefits of riding gear. I would suspect that most of us have accumulated more and better gear over the years, and could provide a wealth of information about gear to noobs. Hell, I had no idea about overpants when I first started riding. Now I don't think I make a trip to the grocery store without 'em.  Stuff like that.
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2007, 11:40:35 am »

Good point, but one only needs to hang out at a forum for a while to learn that. Anecdotal abrasion tests with denim vs. leather vs. ballistic nylon reveal much.
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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2007, 12:47:58 pm »

For me it was a matter of: "What do I actually fit comfortably on?"

I am curently on my first bike, a 2004 Honda 919, which I admit is more engine than I need or probably should have. My first choices were a Suzuki SV650, a Honda 599, or a Monster 620... but at 6'4" tall, I simply didn't fit on them.

I wasn't even considering the 919, until I sat on one in a showroom, and I fit perfectly on it.  Now two years and 4000 miles later, I have no regrets about it.  If it was stolen today, I'd buy another one tomorrow.
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