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Topic: Re: Replace my crashed GSXR with Griso - 3yr, 8 months 100,000 miles later.  (Read 57345 times)

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et
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« on: November 22, 2011, 02:36:25 pm »

While my ankle is still healing from crashing my GSXR.
One of the motorcycles I'm considering replacing it with is a Moto Guzzi Griso.

If I get Griso; it will be the first naked, non-rice-rocket for me in 20+ years.
And my first non-Japanese motorcycle ever.
So some thoughts have been running through my mind as to how to make a Griso a bit more sportier.
(Too bad a MSG-01 Corsa isn't possible.)
Such as replacing the handle bar with clip-ons, replace footpegs with rearsets, and replace stock exhaust with Guzzi's own Termignoni exhaust.

So I've been searching; but have been unable to find answers to a few questions.

  • Clip-ons I could probably get a set from Woodcraft.
    But I have not been able to find any rearset pegs for the Griso.
    Does anyone know of a source of rearsets for the Griso ?

  • Are there any frame sliders (or similar products) available for protecting the engine ?


  • The kickstand on the Griso seems to be very low to the ground.
    Does it (or any other part) create a ground clearance issue when cornering ?


  • With my GSXR I was averaging ~42mpg.
    What mpg should I expect from a Griso ?


  • With all my Suzuki's. I was able to order a Service Manual directly from Suzuki.
    Does Motto Guzzi offer similar service manuals ?



Thanks;
--ET

Edit: 1 year review here: https://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,68335.msg1762251.html#msg1762251

Edit: 1yr, 7 months; Reached 50k miles: https://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,68335.msg1862674.html#msg1862674

Edit: 2yr, 8 months: Reached 78k miles: https://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,68335.msg2194162.html#msg2194162

Edit: 3yr, 5 months: Reached 90k miles: https://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,68335.msg2368409.html#msg2368409

Edit: 3yr, 8 months: Reached 100k miles: https://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,68335.msg2422393.html#msg2422393
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 07:55:09 pm by et » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 03:03:52 pm »

Just get a Ducati 1198.

It seems that is what you are trying to build.

The Griso is perfect as is.
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 03:22:57 pm »

Here's a pic I googled of a Griso with clipons and rear sets, but I have no idea where they were sourced.  Googe "Griso Zero"



Also seen are the equivalent of frame sliders - rubber bits on the jugs.



I have no idea about cornering clearances.  

Fuelly.com does not yet have a Griso listed, but for the Breva and Norges it is about 40mpg.

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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 03:30:45 pm »

While that thing looks neat, it won't come close to the performance of your beloved GSXR, may it rest in peace.  My vote would be for a Duc 848, another GSXR 750, or a Triumph 675.  Those three are pretty similiar in performance.  I personally would just go with another 750.  I'm a big fan of them myself.
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 05:39:20 pm »

Get an 8v Griso and see what you think before you start messing around with it. The motor is wonderful. The character of the Griso will be unlike anything you've ridden. They handle really well stock. The wider bars give you a lot of leverage to toss the thing around with.

Forget the Termi exhaust. I tried getting one and waited 6 months to be told it wasn't available and they didn't know if or when it would be. The Mistral is just as nice and way less money. Won't win you any points at the coffee shop with the Ducati guys though.  Bigsmile

Here's a crappy picture of my wife's Griso SE with the Mistral pipe.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/DougRitchie/IMAG0017.jpg

The fuel mileage runs about the same 42mpg unless you're beating the snot out of it, in which case it will drop to 34-36mpg.

The Shop Manuals are available on Guzzi forums to download.
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 05:58:19 pm »







That's a good looking Griso.    Probably a handful at parking lots speeds without the leverage of the regular bars.

I "settled" for a Griso 4V at a demo several years ago and was impressed with the engine.  The suspension and brakes were definitely far better than my Superhawk too.  It was stable and planted, but I wanted something physically smaller and lighter.  The Griso feels very substantial when lifting  it off the stand and when riding it.  

It would be very different from the GSXR and you would definitely want to demo it.  Only warning on demos - you will eventually own a Guzzi.  The Griso wasn't what I was looking for, but the V7 Cafe was an ideal "second" bike for me.  The Mistrals sound great.  I bought machined aluminum head guards o Ebay for ~$60 as frame sliders.

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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 10:52:20 pm »


So some thoughts have been running through my mind as to how to make a Griso a bit more sportier.
(Too bad a MSG-01 Corsa isn't possible.)
Such as replacing the handle bar with clip-ons, replace footpegs with rearsets...

There are whisperings of a new sporty Guzzi coming in 2012, although it might be late 2012

Although in comparison to a GSXR, it will probably lean more towards the sport touring end of the spectrum

(think revamped V11 Le Mans)
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 12:26:41 am »



There are whisperings of a new sporty Guzzi coming in 2012, although it might be late 2012

Although in comparison to a GSXR, it will probably lean more towards the sport touring end of the spectrum

(think revamped V11 Le Mans)


So, we (the US) will see it about 2016...

 Angry3
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 02:08:53 am »

some of these new-fangled container ships even have swimming pools for their crews  EEK!

I don't think Moto Guzzi should pay for such extravagances  

tramp steamers have suited their purposes for 90 years. I don't see any reason to change.
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 07:27:12 am »

You definitely need to try one before buying it.  While I love my Guzzi, it is very different from my sport bikes and I think Atadaskew is right about trying to change it would end up being a compromise that may not meet your expectations.

The bars are wide and pretty forward (aggressive) for a standard and the bike does have a lot of mass, compared to your GSXR.  Also the Griso shown with the clipons has a 2V engine and the "sliders" that protect the head won't fit on the 8V.  But there are lots of bars on the market that can be mounted to protect the engine.

Be prepared for it being a totally different feel from your other bikes.
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 06:46:31 pm »

Most clip=oms that I've seen on Grisos have beem home made. These are off my mate John's bike



He made some rearsets too.



The frame slider issue has been covered. There are crash bars available which will fit both 1100's and 1200's but most are butt-ugly.

Yes, it is pretty easy to scrape the sidestand/ Best way to corner hard is to trail-brake and load up the driveline at the same time. It's cruel on brakes and the driveline but will help with clearance. The griso has a wheelbase longer than the keel of a supertanker. You have to FORCE it to do what you want, with the stock wide bars this is not so difficult but it will never be a 'Sports' bike.

I with the factory #68 map get 20 Km to the litre when being sensible. Get up it and that figure plummets.

Manuals are available online at a variety if sites. A model specific version of VDSTS is neccesary for tuningand there are now programmes available that allow you to bugger about with the mapping. I'll come back to tuning ans stuff in a bit,

Pete
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 03:39:33 pm »

Well I just got back from test riding the Griso.
It is a 2010 left over. It had only 2 miles on it.
And it was the store's only remaining Guzzi in stock.

With only 2 miles on it. And only taking it on a 5 mile test ride.
I really didn't have much of a chance to experience the power that supposedly kicks in at ~6000.
(Although how much "power" could there be kicking in on a 110hp motorcycle ?)
Nor a whole lot of twisty back road riding or high speed interstate travel.

However; it did not feel like a 500lb motorcycle.
The seating position and handling felt more akin to my old '89 GS500. ie. very light steering (almost unstable) and upright seating.
But that could be due to my having so much saddle time on GSXRs.
And the motor felt like larger version of my SV650S's motor. Just with a side-to-side vibration instead of a front-to-back vibration. (Which is what I expected.)

Overall I did like it. I felt no ill shaft drive effect. And I was definitely mesmerized by that famous Guzzi engine.  Bigsmile
I am looking forward to a motorcycle designed for high mileage, with valves that are easier to adjust than my GSXR, a dry clutch,
no chain to mess with, can handle full electric clothing, and a motorcycle for which I don't have to replace a stator or STV actuator every other year.
And I'm really looking forward to a 2-year unlimited mileage warranty.

The shop is willing to drop the price by $1000. And add in the Termignoni exhaust with free installation and free ECU reprogramming.
So the total with shipping, taxes, freight, etc... would be $14,600.

The salesman made it a point to say that another person was interested in trading in their 1200 sport for it. He even displayed a post-it with a person's name and phone #.
But that was probably just a high pressure sales tactic.

So I guess now I just have to decide if I want to buy a vehicle without putting 30% down. And owning a naked standard motorcycle instead of an all out sport bike.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 03:46:56 pm by et » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2011, 05:03:06 pm »

Too bad the test ride was so short.  I'm pretty curious if you make the switch from sportbike to Griso.  Have you considered a used R1200S?
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2011, 05:52:00 pm »

So last Saturday 12/3/2011 I test rode a Griso,
two days later Monday 12/5/2011 I applied for a loan,
3 hours later I got approved,
today Saturday 12/10/2011 I am now ~$15,000 in debt. Because I now have this  Bigsmile







40 degrees all day, I rode for ~100 miles, grinning the whole way.  Bigsmile
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2011, 06:42:02 pm »

A few tips.

1.) Target idle is 1200 RPM. That is where it is supposed to be. On no account try to change/lower it by adjusting the throttle stop screw on the LH throttle body. The speed is stepper controlled and all you will do is bugger the TPS refference.

2.) Ex factory they almost all seem to come with both air bleeds on the throttle bodies slightly open. This is WRONG. At first service get the TB's ballanced properly, (his is a two stage affair.) and then get the TPS re-set. There should only ever be ONE air bleed open. The 8V is particularly sensitive to TB ballance.

3.) Get the #68 map installed. Once again, when this is done the TPS HAS to be re-callibrated.

4.) Stick the dB killer in the pipe. It wll run much better.

5.) The suspesion takes a long time to break in an is over sprung and over damped. Don't be afraid to tune it. I pays huge dividends.

6.) Use the specified full synthetic oil or equivalent. The engine is oil cooled. A mineral oil will cook and your tappets will go south. You have been warned.

7.) They respond well to being flogged mercilessly. Don't ride like yer granny!

Enjoy!!!

Pete


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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 07:19:21 am »

Nice bike......Who makes it? (get used to questions)

Beautiful bike-congradulations.

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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 12:16:47 pm »

Very nice.  In my opinion about the best looking bike being made these days. I really want one just not in the cards right now so I will  have to enjoy looking at others bikes for now...  beats the hell out of another Gixxer or any other plastic wrapped supersport that will be obsolete in a year or two.
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 03:11:56 pm »

Congrats!!!
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 03:43:03 pm »

Nice - look forward to hearing what you think about it after commuting for a while.
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 04:43:55 pm »

Ride a GUZZI, you'll never look back.


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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 03:09:45 am »


Ride a GUZZI, you'll never look back.


Dean


Yep, because everyone is in front of you.  Smile

I kid, a used Griso was on my shortlist for the last couple years for my "local" bike to supplement the Sprint.  Ended up with the Tuono, and don't regret it, but the Griso still causes a bit of lust (especially in black).

Also, et,  if you have $50 or so to spend, pick up a set of 2nd Gen Tuono mirrors on Ebay.  You won't regret it.
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« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2011, 03:41:54 am »


So last Saturday 12/3/2011 I test rode a Griso,
two days later Monday 12/5/2011 I applied for a loan,
3 hours later I got approved,
today Saturday 12/10/2011 I am now ~$15,000 in debt. Because I now have this  Bigsmile
...

40 degrees all day, I rode for ~100 miles, grinning the whole way.  Bigsmile


That's really lovely. Good on you for deciding 'what the hell, go for it' - beats regrets for roads not taken any day. I bet that was a big grin.
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 07:26:32 am »


So last Saturday 12/3/2011 I test rode a Griso,
two days later Monday 12/5/2011 I applied for a loan,
3 hours later I got approved,
today Saturday 12/10/2011 I am now ~$15,000 in debt. Because I now have this  Bigsmile







40 degrees all day, I rode for ~100 miles, grinning the whole way.  Bigsmile


Beautiful Moto Guzzi - best of luck with it.  Keep us posted on how you get along, and if you install clip-ons & rearsets.   Thumbsup
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2011, 12:37:54 pm »

Congrats!

Best looking nekkid bike around.
Want.
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 06:29:03 pm »

Sexy, sexy, sexy  Inlove, you are gonna have a ball with her, Congrats!
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2011, 11:32:28 pm »

Congrats.  Jealous.
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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 01:06:40 am »

Why the jelousy There are many Grisos out there to be had. Not so many 1100's nowadays but a host of 1200's. Yes, there were early problems with soft tappets. That was dealt with effectively by the factory. Yes, in certain markets only, there seem to have been a few other failures. They seem to be 'Market specific', rather than 'Model, (ie 8V.) specific. You make your own minds up. I' get on mine and ride to Perth tomorrow, (about 4,500Km from here.) with nothing more than a toothbrush and credit card.

Get out there. there are some killer deals on '09-'10 Grisos in the USA. all you have to do is look. If you want to make sure it's done right buy one off the 'Good Guy's' rather than the fly-by-night's

Apart from being really brilliantly styled they are a killer 'Road' ride. Not a racebike with lightsbut a genuine 'Road' bike that can scratch, tour and commute with great ease.

Don't look at one. sneer at its 'Mere' 100HP, heavy weight and long wheelbase. Your loss. Not ours.

Pete
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2011, 11:50:44 am »

I've ridden one, I just haven't been able to sell my racebike for monies.
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2011, 06:09:06 pm »

et, you've just bought one of the best bikes on the market regardless of the label on the tank.   Cool

Congratulations!   Bigok   Clap Clap



A couple of years ago I did an 1100/1200 Griso back-to-back comparo here:  https://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,31915.0.html    and raved about the 1200.  It's sweeeet.   Banana
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2011, 09:34:30 am »

 Bigok Welcome to the club  Beerchug  
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2011, 12:41:15 pm »

Thanks everyone for the encouragement !

Here's my impressions after one week of ownership and 900 miles:
(I was surprised to read that Guzzi's run-in period is 931 miles instead of the typical 600 miles.)
(Today I dropped it off at the dealer for it's first service. And will be getting it back same day. Cool !)

For the first 650 miles I kept the rpms between 2500 to 5000 rpm, never got above 70mph,
kept changing my speeds on the interstate, and rode two lane county/state roads as much as possible.
I just hope the 20 degree temps we had every morning this week didn't hinder the piston rings seating in correctly.
My fuel usage average was 38mpg during this time.

From 650 to 900 miles. I put db killer in the Termignoni exhaust and started to actually ride the bike as intended.
I was accelerating quicker and getting rpms into the power band. But still kept under 7000 rpm.
Mileage during these couple of tank fulls dropped from 38mpg to 33mpg.
The gas tank is very small. I'm filling up twice per day. Once every 110 to 130 miles.
I'm hoping the mpg improves as time goes by.

It's performance feels rather akin to a larger version of my sv650s; but with an upright seating position.
The handlebar feels too high and far back. I keep feeling like I'm going to fall off the back.
But that could be because I've been riding sportbikes with clip-ons and rearsets for over 20 years.
I still like to idea of installing clip-ons. But without rearsets knees would be jammed into my chest.
And no one appears to make rearsets for the Griso.
And I can see how clip-ons could be too narrow.
Perhaps a handlebar with no rise in it ?
Perhaps I will just leave it as is.

It feels a bit weak on the interstate compared to my 2000 GSXR-750.
At 90mph my 2000 GSXR was just coming into it's power band. And at 80mph the Griso feels like it's nearing it's limit.
But that's to be expected. And the Griso is still new. Need to see what occurs after a few thousand miles.
It almost reminds me of my 1986 Limited Edition GSXR-750.

Very tight fit when lane-splitting in stopped interstate traffic during commute. But that's not unexpected.
Besides; I really shouldn't be lane-splitting in NJ or PA anyway.
There's not enough gas tank to brace yourself against during braking. Must use handlebars; which is bad form.
But I'm certain as time goes by. The seat will probably break-in and give plenty of bracing support.

Last night at exactly 902 miles. I learned about all those Guzzi quirks.
It took me 3 hrs to change motor, transmission, + final drive oils !
I let all three drain for ~45 minutes and had learned which tools I'm missing. Such as 8mm hex socket. T-handle doesn't quite cut it.
The transmission drain too is too close to the charcol canister.
So I had to use aluminum foil to cover the charcol canister.
Same with final drive and rear wheel; had to use aluminum foil.
The transmission is just like an auto transmission. PIA to fill up.
Engine oil fill on "wrong" side. Would be nice if it was opposite side stand; to make it easier to add the oil.
Due to confined space. I was unable to get socket on drains for transmission + final drive.
I was forced to use an open end wrench. So was unable to accurately tighten to specified torque.

Although Intelligently. Moto Guzzi designed all three; engine, transmission, and final drive; to use the same drain plug. A M10x1.
Now if I can just find quickdrain plugs in that size.

All those little issues aside. It handles exceptionally well on the typical two lane county/state roads typical in NJ and PA.
And is a ball to ride. I'm riding those roads grinning the entire time. And at nearly the same pace as I did my GSXR.

I like the voltmeter, outside thermometer, snowflake that appears at low temps, voltmeter, and real time mpg reading that are all available on the instrument display.
And I'm certain I will learn more about the features available on the instrument display as time goes by.

I'm getting compliments everywhere I go. Even from non-motorcyclists.

All-n-all; I have absolutely no regrets. Because this bike is a hoot !

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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2011, 12:52:59 pm »

Way to go et, I'm happy for you!   Clap
I like your idea of a no-rise (or less rise) handlebar until you get accustomed to the new riding position.
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2011, 01:33:42 pm »

 Thumbsup

Maybe Suburban Machinery bars would improve seating position while maintaining leverage for steering?
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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2011, 11:48:20 am »

Sounds like a good honeymoon so far. My Stelvio came with a center stand and obviously has a small shield and different rider triangle, but on every bike I've had I give it a couple 1000 miles before changing seats, etc., most of it is a matter of getting used to each other. Fuel mileage will continue to rise and it took mine 10-12K to break in fully (just like BMW twins). I use tin foil or cardboard to direct oil into the pan on so many bikes, you'd think they would note how simple and clean you can do a service on UJM bikes. On the Stelvio there is a screw in plug the oil dip stick is inserted through, if you have that too, just unscrew that and a bigger funnel will fit and speed up adding the oil. A squeeze bottle with a nipple you can trim (like a caulking tube end) will allow you to pre fill it with needed amount of gear lube and then simply insert and squeeze till done. You are barely touching her erogenous rpm zone and at least for my Stelvio, I found her to be very long legged and very happy to cruise 115-125 (indicated, but she DRINKS petrol over 95-100 mph). I'm sure it hasn't the high end snap of your sport bike engine, but she is the anti-HD twin in design and practice. Not sure where load and aerodynamics limit her/you, but 90 is def "cruising" for this engine IMO. Good info on GuzziTech too.

Let her run and enjoy the engine braking too, makes it a real hoot surfing the curves and mountain roads.

Cheers and Safe Travels
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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2011, 08:24:23 pm »

Congrats in the bike choice!   Thumbsup
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2011, 01:01:45 pm »

Quote
And at 80mph the Griso feels like it's nearing it's limit


 Lol Lol

Yeah, only about 60mph left to go.
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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2011, 03:06:19 pm »

Yup, if it feels like its running out of puff at 60MPH thats only about 3,500RPM. My guess is that yu've still got the #01 map in and if you insist on running it with the dB killer out you'll be running it into the Texas sized hole in the midrange that is caused, principally, by the mapping and pipe.

As I said above, stick the dB killer in and aquire the new map and power becomes linear from 3,000 RPM up although for rapid acceleration keeping the engine spinning above 5,000 is the way to go. When the ECU is remapped you MUST get the TPS re-set afterwards. the 8V's are also VERY sensitive to throttle body ballance. Make sure it is done properly.

Pete
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« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2011, 07:22:58 pm »


A few tips.

1.) Target idle is 1200 RPM. That is where it is supposed to be. On no account try to change/lower it by adjusting the throttle stop screw on the LH throttle body. The speed is stepper controlled and all you will do is bugger the TPS refference.

2.) Ex factory they almost all seem to come with both air bleeds on the throttle bodies slightly open. This is WRONG. At first service get the TB's ballanced properly, (his is a two stage affair.) and then get the TPS re-set. There should only ever be ONE air bleed open. The 8V is particularly sensitive to TB ballance.

3.) Get the #68 map installed. Once again, when this is done the TPS HAS to be re-callibrated.

4.) Stick the dB killer in the pipe. It wll run much better.

5.) The suspesion takes a long time to break in an is over sprung and over damped. Don't be afraid to tune it. I pays huge dividends.

6.) Use the specified full synthetic oil or equivalent. The engine is oil cooled. A mineral oil will cook and your tappets will go south. You have been warned.

7.) They respond well to being flogged mercilessly. Don't ride like yer granny!

Enjoy!!!

Pete






Yup, if it feels like its running out of puff at 60MPH thats only about 3,500RPM. My guess is that yu've still got the #01 map in and if you insist on running it with the dB killer out you'll be running it into the Texas sized hole in the midrange that is caused, principally, by the mapping and pipe.

As I said above, stick the dB killer in and aquire the new map and power becomes linear from 3,000 RPM up although for rapid acceleration keeping the engine spinning above 5,000 is the way to go. When the ECU is remapped you MUST get the TPS re-set afterwards. the 8V's are also VERY sensitive to throttle body ballance. Make sure it is done properly.

Pete


When I took in for it's first service; I printed out your first reply and specifically asked them about #2 and #3.

The mechanic who did the work replied:

"
#2 Only if the bike runs in open loop down low, or this #86 map deletes the O2 sensor. Whether U turn the air screws in or out the O2 should compensate. But I did turn them all the way in, and turned the right side out until the TB's were synched. Seems to be a bit smoother !
"

"
#3 Never heard of this map. But it seemed to be an option for download. I could not download the map cause we did not have the pass code. Be we can contact Piaggio & see what they say about this.
"

When I picked up the bike; they said they would do as the mechanic suggested; and call Piaggio about the map.
I do recall one of the parts counter people saying that they had him searching all over for the shop for the box for the Termi exhaust came in because there is suppose to be a new ECU in there.
BUT when he found the box; there was no ECU. And they only had to install a new map.
I wonder what map they installed if they did not know about map #68 (if any) ?

I have to stop by tomorrow night after work or on my day off; Friday. Because the little retainer screw for the dB fell off.
So when I get a replacement screw (they said they have plenty); I'll also re-enforce they have to call Piaggio about the code for downloading map #68.

Thanks for the tips !

--ET
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« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2011, 11:08:27 pm »

What softwre are they using? Navigator or Axone?

Pete
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« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2011, 11:16:32 pm »

Oh and a C&P on how to ballance the TB's




The process is very simple.

First re-set the TPS and make sure that the throttle cables are allowing the throttle butterfly to reach the stop screw..

warm the engine up to >60*C and close both air bleeds.

connect guages/ballance tool to ports on manifolds and start motor,

Hold engine speed @ 3,800-4,000 RPM with the throttle and use the screw shown circled in the pic above to ballance the manifold depression at that speed.

allow the throttle to close fully and turn off engine. Check TPS setting and re-set it.

re-start engine and open the bleed screw on the side with the highest manifld depression until the depression equalizes.

That's it. Job done. It has nothing to do with the motor running closed or open loop and the idle speed is controlled by the stepper motor.

Pete

PS. Unlike certain other models there is no ECU supplied with the Termi pipe. It is a simple slip-on.
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2012, 02:04:56 pm »

I hope this is not signs of things to come.

Dealer attempted to install map #68.
The ECU is now dead.
Supposedly it is failing with an "ECU disconnect" error code.
Piaggio has agreed to replace the ECU under warrantee; since they are the ones who gave the dealer the access code.

So as it stands now; brand new Griso is dead after only ~2,000 miles.   Angry3

--ET
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2012, 02:11:09 pm »

I had some early issues with my dash, but were taken care of under warranty and my 1200 Sport has been good since, currently at 22000 miles.

Hope it works out for you after this is sorted.
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2012, 05:01:40 pm »

As explained on Guzzitech my guess is they interupted the upload in some way. The reboot data is the last thing installed after the mapping process is started. Interupt it and the ECU will need a full reprogramming. Only other thing known to cause ECU's to drop their load is poor earthing, Make sure the earth lead is correctly ositioned and tightened.

In this case though I think it sounds like the person driving the tooling made a mistake.

Pete
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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2012, 09:07:52 pm »

Op here:

In two days it will be exactly 1 year since purchasing my Griso 8V.
In that year I have managed to put 35,000 miles on it.
So the verdict is; I like it ! Smile

Being that I have been riding Japanese sportbikes since the mid 80's.
It took a little getting use to a bike that had actual handle bars and no rear-sets.
For the first few thousand miles; whenever the Griso hit it's powerband near redline.
I kept feeling like I was going to fall of the back.

But that feeling is now mostly gone.
It only reappears on a Monday after doing a trackday or a raceday with my race bike; an SV650S with Woodcraft clip-ons and rear-sets.

Comparing the Griso to my previous 2000 GSXR750.
At normal street speeds; my usual 10 to 20 mph over most posted limits.
I really don't see much difference in performance.
The way the Griso handles you would not know it's 100 lbs heavier than my GSXR.
For daily riding the only thing the Griso lacks when compared to the GSXR. Is the amount of acceleration.
And I only miss that acceleration about 10% of the time. Like pulling out onto a crowded interstate during rush hour.
With the GSXR it was simply a matter of twisting the throttle and getting to 80mph in first gear in just a couple seconds.
Whereas with the Griso it takes a couple more seconds and a couple gear shifts.

Don't get me wrong; the Griso is no slouch. It's acceleration will still impress you.
In many ways it feels like a faster version of my '86 Limited Edition GSXR750R.
For being an air-cooled V-Twin; it's got a really nice horsepower rush near it's redline.
And yet still has a huge amount of low rpms torque. And huge amount mid-range torque and horsepower.
In fact I would say the power delivery of the Griso 8V's motor is perfect for the street.

What the Griso lacks in performance compared to my GSXR; it more than makes up for in maintenance.
All I've been doing is changing the oils; motor, gearbox, and shaftdrive (CARC); every 3 to 4 thousand miles.
And checking the valves every 6k miles.
With those jugs sticking out in the open; valve checks are so much easier than any other motorcycle I have ever owned.

At this time in the life of my GSXR; it had left me stranded in the middle of Manhattan 60 miles away from home. Due to a burnt out stator.

Don't get me wrong. The Griso is not without it's flaws.
It's horn and high/low beam switches are in very awkward positions.
For the first 10,000 miles I was constantly giving people angry turn signal cancellations instead of the horn.
The high/low switch requires a nearly complete removal of your grip on the handlebar to switch between high and low beams.
The automatic fast-idle (aka choke) appears to have failed. Causing me to manually elevate it's idle with the throttle in cold (ie 40 degrees F or lower) weather for the first minute or two.
But I haven't looked into that yet. It may be a simple fix.
Besides I've had other vehicles on which the automatic fast-idle never worked quite right.

The biggest complaint I have about the Griso is it's suspension.
It's under sprung and over damped.
Half of it's travel is used just sitting static. And it gives a very harsh ride on less than perfect roads.
In fact on Thanksgiving Eve I hit a pothole while changing lanes.
And this bent both front and rear wheels; and split the sidewall of the front tire.
But to be fair; this very same pothole may have damaged any motorcycle. Because it bounces 18 wheelers.

Even with these flaws; the Griso still has me grinning from ear-to-ear every time I go for a ride.

Here's how it now looks:
(Badly in need of a washing. Sorry but I'd rather ride than bathe it. Smile )







--ET
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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2012, 02:38:41 am »

I'm terribly sorry but you are quite obviously horribly wrong.

*Everybody* knows that Moto Guzzi make motorbikes that are so horribly unreliable and 'Fatally Flawed' that they are only bought by masochists and mental defectives.

In fact everything about Moto Guzzi is just so hopelessly horrible that they should be outlawed! Twice! Maybe three times!

Your start up problem is probably because your bike is incorrectly tuned. I strongly advise you to replace the wheels, get your suspension rebuilt/adjusted by an expert and adjust your tyre pressures by the 10% method.

Then you can either a.) realise that the evidence of your experience is obviously wrong, the bike is a shitter and you are a dupe.

Or

b.) keep on doing what you've been doing and ride it problem free for another 100,000 miles.

I do strongly suggest you grease he swingarm and shock linkage bearings and on my bike which I've just given a major chassis overhaul to greasing the steering head bearings has made the steering a lot nicer but honestly. The only people who seem to be seriously panning the 8V models seem to be those with crappy service agents and mechanics who's bikes have NEVER been right.

I love my Griso. Its a bonkers 'Road' bike. A 'Turn Key' proposition and is so simple to service and tune compared to he opposition that my mind boggles as to why they don't sell by the boatload.

What would I know?

Pete
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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2012, 09:39:12 am »

Thanks for the update et.  Thumbsup
The Griso is IMO the best looking Guzzi and you have done yours exactly how I'd mod mine, no more no less.
It's to bad my nearest dealer is 150mi. away.....
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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2012, 06:27:23 pm »

et -

I know my Norge is not a Griso, but after doing the suspension upgrade to my bike, I can tell you it was the best spent $1K I could possibly have spent on it.  It feels like a completely different motorcycle.  Do both ends - rear shock and spring as well as front springs and cartridge emulators (if appropriate).  A world of difference.  Check on the GuzziTech board for complete details.

Listen to Pete Roper - he does know what he's talking about (at least when it comes to Guzzis  Bigsmile )

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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2012, 09:09:07 am »

Really good to see you still enjoying the Griso a year later and 35k miles. Welcome to the dark side! Pass the word on to others and start converting.  Cool

Eric
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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2013, 05:35:47 pm »

I have to say, I'm not surprised that you've had good luck mechanically with your Griso. I have near 40k on my Stelvio, and my wife has about 30k (also in just about a year) on her SE and neither of them have been to the shop for anything other than tires.

The Stelvio gets thrashed horribly and just keeps coming back for more. Both my wife and I did a 10k mile cross country trip this year including a jaunt up to Alaska and the only failures we had were a broken directional lens (Griso - stone from dumptruck) and a hinge pin on the Trax trunk on the Stelvio that just disappeared (replaced with a small nut and bolt and the next town's hardware store). We never once wondered where the nearest dealer was. Never even bothered to look before leaving.


I have had fantastic luck with all my Guzzi's though so I may be a bit biased. My 04 Ballabio has over 70k on it and it has never been down a day for anything other than a clutch replacement at 56k.

I'm glad to see that you still like your Griso after the first year. I've yet to meet anyone that had one and didn't like it. My bet is that it won't be your last Guzzi.  Smile
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« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2013, 09:08:21 pm »

May have taken 19 months.
But turned 50,000 miles on my Griso 1200 8V today on way home from work:



Was on my third drive chain, second stator, and second stv actuator on the GSXR by this mileage.

Although used oil analysis started showing much higher engine wear near 40k miles.
By 49k; used oil analysis is showing much less wear.
Maybe the motor is just starting to break in, maybe motor just has more wear during the winter, maybe air filter was not seated correctly, etc ....

No matter what; Griso is still running strong and I'm still loving it !

--ET
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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2013, 10:47:12 pm »



... turned 50,000 miles on my Griso 1200 8V today on way home from work...





Frickin' awesome!  Bigok

The 4v per head Griso is the best bike Guzzi have ever made.   And you're right, the engine is a peach.   Thumbsup

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« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2013, 12:24:29 am »

What an unutterable pus-bucket! I'd trade it in on a BMW or a Honda before it kills you.

*Everybody* knows that Guzzis are unreliable shit-heaps. Especially anything post-Piaggio.

 Rolleyes

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« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2013, 11:27:55 am »

Thanks for the 50k mile "real world" update.  
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« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2013, 11:16:35 am »

Really great to read these kind of real world experiences on a MG! Thanks for posting.

Eric
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« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2013, 08:35:41 am »

 :popcorn:
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« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2013, 12:09:04 pm »


Ride a GUZZI, you'll never look back.


Dean


I hop that's not because nobody will ever be behind you.  lol
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« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2014, 12:19:13 pm »

We're about due for another mileage update ET?!!!  Bigok

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« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2014, 02:24:33 pm »

Op here,

Will be turning 78,000 miles on way home from work today.
Still loving this bike !

Still think what I've given up in performance compared to my previous GSXR.
Is more than made up for in ease of maintenance, riding something other than "just another rice-rocket" or cruiser, and the smile it puts on my face every time I through a leg over it.
And everyone; sportbike rider, Harley rider, even non-motorcyclists comment on how good it looks.  Wink

Although this past weekend, for a few hours I was double guessing myself.
I finally changed the alternator belt.
And it took me 7 hours !

I had trouble getting off the fuel tank.
First because the vent hose that leads to the tip-over valve and (long since) removed charcoal canister. Was clamped to the bottom of the fuel tank, was zip tied to the main wiring harness, and there was not enough excess hose to fit my hand or tools underneath the tank to disconnect this hose.
Being it was the very first time I had to remove the fuel tank. I did not know what to expect and was being extra cautious.
I ultimately left the hose connected to the fuel tank and instead disconnected it from the tip-over valve.
Second; I think due to the mileage and crud built up under the tank. I never was able to disconnect the fuel line from the bottom.
So instead of fully removing fuel tank; I simply used a block of wood to keep the front of it tilted up.

After raising the fuel tank. I had to remove right side coil, horn, ECU, alternator cover, and two of the three bolts of the alternator.
These consumed much of the time. Because I could not get a full wrench on many of these Allen bolts.
Due to their location; a socket or wrench would be blocked by the frame and/or main wiring harness.
I was regulated to using small Allen/hex key for most of them, doing a 1/4 turn, fumble with key, do another 1/4 turn, etc....
There were 3 different sizes of Allen bolts for the alternator cover alone.
Plus with a couple of the bolts; it was not possible to get a wrench on both the bolt and it's corresponding nut to tighten them
I had to tighten as best as possible by starting by hand and finishing with only the friction of nut-against-mount being the only resistance.

The actual replacing of the alternator belt only took a min or two.

After replacing the belt and putting everything back together. Took just as long as taking apart. Again particially due to my being cautious.
Reinstalling the alternator cover took several attempts. Have you ever tried starting an Allen bolt who's hole you can't see using the short end of a hex key ?
And upon reinstalling the plastic fuel tank; it felt like it grew 1/4 in in length.
The trick was to install all it's bolts in the same order you removed them; NOT the reverse order as you would expect and typically do.

In the end; the old belt still looked rather good and I decided next belt change will  be MUCH easier now that I know what will be involved.
And I'll probably have better tools.

Don't get me wrong. The above rant only temporarily diminished my love of this Guzzi.
Griso is still running strong. And I'm still very much happy I made the trade up from GSXR to Griso.
And I've had no issues with it. Just been riding it, changing fluids, tires, and brake pads.

The routine maintenance on this bike is still easy. Change oils regularly and adjust/check valves from time-to-time.
Valve checks are simple AND easy. You sit on a stool and the valves stare you straight in the face. Smile
Although I've added Stucchi-Luigi's new/improved crash bars which add a little annoyance to checking the valves.
Because you have to maneuver the valve covers off the head in a specific pattern to clear the crash bars.
But it's only a slight annoyance.

Almost from the beginning; I've been using Motul 7100 10w60 in the motor, AGIP 85W90 in the gear box, and AGIP 80w90 in the CARC (shaftdrive).
But now that the warranty is over and Motul appears to have lowered the amount of ZDDP in their 10w60.
I've begun switching to Redline's 10w60.
Last oil change was a mixture of Motul and Redline. Next oil change will be completely Redline.
I have no plans for switching away from AGIP for the gearbox and CARC.

I'll try to add photos in the next day or two.

BTW; did I say how much I still love this bike ?  Bigsmile

Update:
When I got home from work the day of writing the above. I changed the oils on my Griso.
And I discovered the following:


That's the bracket for the mid exhaust pipe that is broken. Sad
It wasn't like that last month when I changed the oils.

So I think it happened this past Tuesday when I was cut off on I-78 in Clinton, NJ.
I-78 in NJ sucks. There are many many long, narrow, deep potholes separating the lanes in many locations.
It's so bad in some areas; that it is unsafe to change lanes.

Anyway; I priced the parts to replace the mid exhaust pipe and the related screws, clamps, and gaskets.
The pipe is over $200, and each gasket and clamp are $30 each.
So replacing it will have to wait until next month. For now; I have safety wired the crap out of it.
Looks horrible; but it will do as a temporary fix.

This reminded me of the only drawback I see with the Griso.
Which is it's stock suspension. It just is not up to par for the weight of this bike.
I think it's typical Italian suspension. Under sprung and over damped ?
I've taken it a couple times to the same shop where I get my race bike's suspension done.
And they would like to see a little more pre-load on the suspension. Especially the rear.

As promised. I attempted to take photos of it.
The battery for my camera is dying. So in addition the the above photos of the broken bracket.
I was only able to get one photo of the bike before the battery died:


Yes I know it's dirty. But as I've said in the past. I'd rather ride it than bathe it.  Bigsmile
You may not believe me. But I do wash it every once in a while. Usually around every other tire change.

--ET
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 07:20:02 pm by et » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2014, 04:44:48 pm »

Have you downloaded Guzzidiag and Reader and Writer yet? If not do so, it will enable you to reset the TPS and all the adjustable parameters after servicing. We have some great mapping options for the G8 too.

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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2014, 06:51:46 pm »


Have you downloaded Guzzidiag and Reader and Writer yet? If not do so, it will enable you to reset the TPS and all the adjustable parameters after servicing. We have some great mapping options for the G8 too.

Pete


No I haven't downloaded Guzzidiag and Reader and Writer.
However; shortly after purchasing the Griso; I bought Technoresearch's diagnostics tool from Guzzitech.
Though I haven't had to adjust anything on the Griso yet.

--ET
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« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2014, 07:43:58 am »

Have you balanced the throttle bodies? If so you need to re- set the TPS.

As for the Technoresearch kit? Yup, it will perform the basic tasks but Reader and Writer open up a whole new world of possibilities.

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« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2014, 11:19:21 am »

 Thumbsup

Great update ET! Thank you for taking the time to share with us your long term experience with the G8.

Eric
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« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2014, 11:57:01 am »


 Thumbsup

Great update ET! Thank you for taking the time to share with us your long term experience with the G8.

Eric


Thanks. But things just started going South shortly after my previous update.

Currently at work and logging in remotely to my computer. So typing is very slow.
So instead of retyping. Here's a link to another thread with some info:
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/error-ecu00-caused-by-new-oil-washing-bike.13716/

--ET
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« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2014, 05:43:34 pm »

Its nothing to do with the oil. Check when it illuminates if there is a crossed out gone symbol with an arrow at the bottom of the dash. If one of the indicators drops out, (Usually because the connectors to the loom are crappy.) it will throw up the warning triangle and show the globe symbol on the dash. The arrow points to the side with the problem. It may well be that the washing promoted corrosion in assorted connectors. Time to clear them out.

Pete
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« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2014, 09:51:46 pm »


Its nothing to do with the oil. Check when it illuminates if there is a crossed out gone symbol with an arrow at the bottom of the dash. If one of the indicators drops out, (Usually because the connectors to the loom are crappy.) it will throw up the warning triangle and show the globe symbol on the dash. The arrow points to the side with the problem. It may well be that the washing promoted corrosion in assorted connectors. Time to clear them out.

Pete


The error being displayed is the red triangle around the exclamation point and SERVICE on the dash.
It usually only displays for a couple seconds at a time.
Only once did it last long enough for me to log into the Diagnostics menu on the dash and catch the code of ECU00.

All this may very well be caused by the broken mid-exhaust bracket as noted in that thread.
Yes I know blaming the oil sounds very ignorant.
But it seemed very coincidental that these random ECU #00 errors started EXACTLY when I filled with the Redline 10w60.
And then the RPM sensor died with an ECU error #54 the morning following a day on which I got a lot of those (presumably) ECU #00 errors.

I hope to have time to check all electrical connectors this or next weekend.
And also order the mid-exhaust.


Thanks;
--ET
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« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2015, 04:05:21 pm »

OP here,

The Griso has gotten worse since my last post in Sept.
It has 90,000 miles and my opinion of it has turned 180 degrees.

Itemized list of issues:
  • ECU error #00. Which Guzzi defines as "Unrecognized Error". Neither dealer or Guzzi/Piaggio can diagnose. Piaggio says to ignore it.
  • Phase sensor failed. Replacement part was $200.
  • Alternator is going bad. Replacement is $850. Hoping I can either rebuild myself or find matching car alternator for much lower in price.
  • Central exhaust bracket broke. Replacement part does not exist. And exhaust will not pass inspection. Meaning I can not legally use the Griso.
  • Lambda sensor has died. Replacement part is $200.
  • Oil pressure sensor failed and caused an oil leak. Replacement part is $200.
  • Nearly every part order I've placed with dealer has resulted in incorrect parts being ordered by dealer.


Couple of stories to help shed some light on issues.

Last Fall I started receiving intermittent warning lights on the dash.
It took several attempts to catch the error code. The code turned out to be ECU Error #00. Which Guzzi defines as "Unrecognized Error".
The error appeared to have coincided with switching from Motul 7100 10w60 motor oil to Redline 10w60 motor oil.
But it also appeared to coincide with the bracket for the central exhaust breaking.
And around that same time; the phase sensor failed. A $200 part.

The ECU error #00 appeared to be temperature related. It was more common at colder ambient temperatures.
And did not stop when I switched back to Motul 7100 10w60 motor oil. Although it did appear to be less common than with the Redline.

Thinking it might be a possibility that the central exhaust; in addition to broken bracket; might have a crack that I can't find.
I ordered a new central exhaust, it's mounting bolts, and it's gaskets.
And at the same time ordered fork parts for doing a fork oil change over the Winter.

Well after nearly 2 months. SOME parts arrived.
I got the mounting bolts, incorrect gaskets (dealer's parts girl ordered wrong gaskets), and SOME fork parts.
The central exhaust is on backorder with no ETA (even 7 months later).
Some of the fork parts were on back order with no ETA. And some of the fork parts were incorrect (again wrong parts ordered by dealer's parts girl).

The independent shop that did the fork oil change for me. Was able to use Suzuki crush washers and Kawasaki bushings.
Fortunately the fork seals; dust and oil; ordered by the dealer were correct.





On April 23, 2015 while riding to work. In addition to the random red triangle along with SERVICE in bold letters on dash display for ECU error #00.
The oil pressure light randomly came on and an oil leak developed.
I had the bike towed home and trouble shot the leak the following day, could not find the source of the leak, so scheduled an appointment with local dealer; earliest time was May 7th.
I also trouble shot the leak last weekend.
I was unable to replicate the leak. But it appeared to be the oil pressure sensor.

In addition to the oil leak and oil pressure. I also received an error about the lambda sensor not working.
And after trouble shooting the oil leak. I was unable to get the gas tank back on. It appeared to have grown in length.

On May 7 the dealer confirmed the leak was the oil pressure sensor, that the lambda sensor had gone bad, and that the gas tank had stretched slightly, however they claim to have gotten the tank back on.

BUT they were unable to determine the cause of the ECU error #00.
So they called Guzzi/Piaggio.

Piaggio's response. "We don't know what could be causing that. So just ignore it."

WHAT ?!!!

How are you suppose to ignore big, flashing warnings lights on your dash ?
And if you do ignore them; how are you going to realize other warnings ??

Griso is currently at dealer waiting for oil pressure sensor and lambda sensor to arrive.

I think this is my first and last Guzzi.

--ET
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« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2015, 08:18:06 pm »

 Hmmm....electrical issues and a shitty dealer. Neither really surprise me, but that could be a BMW, Triumph or Ducati issue (or Honda for that matter...lol) just as easily. Too bad so many problems are hitting you. Must have been a Monday bike. Can't you get a buddy to weld that exhaust?
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« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2015, 08:37:38 pm »

Ouch
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« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2015, 09:06:53 pm »

As much as I like to sympathize  with you, it is a 90k bike. You can drop 2 grand into it and it's still a 90k bike.  I realize a lot of riders expect that and much more from their bikes, but for many of us, 90k of service is an admirable one.  I myself would be more than glad to thank it and go look for a another one.
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« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2015, 09:30:24 pm »


As much as I like to sympathize  with you, it is a 90k bike. You can drop 2 grand into it and it's still a 90k bike.  I realize a lot of riders expect that and much more from their bikes, but for many of us, 90k of service is an admirable one.  I myself would be more than glad to thank it and go look for a another one.



Amount of miles is no excuse for:
  • dealer consistently ordering incorrect parts
  • major parts; or any parts; not being available for a bike that is only 4 years old
  • and most importantly; a manufacture saying they don't know their own ECU error codes and telling customer tough luck.
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« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2015, 09:59:09 pm »




Amount of miles is no excuse for:
  • dealer consistently ordering incorrect parts
  • major parts; or any parts; not being available for a bike that is only 4 years old
  • and most importantly; a manufacture saying they don't know their own ECU error codes and telling customer tough luck.



Sorry to hear about you issues.

If you don't mind my asking where are you located?

Regards,

Gerry

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« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2015, 11:39:32 pm »




Sorry to hear about you issues.

If you don't mind my asking where are you located?

Regards,

Gerry




Allentown, PA
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2015, 08:42:59 am »




Allentown, PA


Just sent you a PM.  Hopefully it may help.

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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2015, 02:02:00 pm »

What, if any, modifications have you made to the machine? 'Service' error is almost certainly due to cracked centrepipe. Air being drawn in at certain times will be screwing with the O2 sensor input, the narrow band sensors are very dumb. Chances are the sensor is OK but a fault was triggered when it's signal went beyond acceptable parameters. Alternatively it failed through overfuelling caused by air intrusion fooling the ECU to overfuel grossly. How has your fuel economy been?

My advice for what it's worth is find the crack in the pipe midsection and have it welded. The oil pressure sender has been updated with a new part but for reasons of economy rather than anything else. It needs a mounting piece as well and a swap to the connector. Has the bike ever had the throttle bodies removed for cleaning? If not it's well overdue. While this is being done do NOT move or interfere with the throttle stop screw or linkage rod adjustment.

Spend a handful of dollars on the cables and download and become familiar with Guzzidiag and the Reader and Writer programmes, learn to do your own servicing if your dealer is unreliable or you feel they are, there are few bikes easier to service and tune than a Guzzi. Once familiar with the Guzzidiag suite of tools I can send you a map that will transform your bike as long as it is stock or close to giving you not only smoother running but better fuel economy but ONLY if your machine is serviced and tuned correctly.

Pete
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2015, 02:34:39 pm »


 Hmmm....electrical issues and a shitty dealer. Neither really surprise me, but that could be a BMW, Triumph or Ducati issue (or Honda for that matter...lol) just as easily. Too bad so many problems are hitting you. Must have been a Monday bike. Can't you get a buddy to weld that exhaust?


yeah, right  ..... dream on   Twofinger
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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2015, 03:21:21 pm »


 Hmmm....electrical issues and a shitty dealer. Neither really surprise me, but that could be a BMW, Triumph or Ducati issue (or Honda for that matter...lol) just as easily. Too bad so many problems are hitting you. Must have been a Monday bike. Can't you get a buddy to weld that exhaust?


That was my original thought.
But there are some issues with performing this seemly simple task of getting the central exhaust welded.

First; that it's almost a guarantee that the clamps and gaskets will need to be replaced due to age and rust.
Second; the gaskets for the central exhaust are not available; ie they are back ordered with no ETA.
Third; friend of friend who may be able to weld it. Wants to see the exhaust OFF the bike to determine material and thickness.
Which is currently problematic as per first and second issues.
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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2015, 03:50:31 pm »


What, if any, modifications have you made to the machine? 'Service' error is almost certainly due to cracked centrepipe. Air being drawn in at certain times will be screwing with the O2 sensor input, the narrow band sensors are very dumb. Chances are the sensor is OK but a fault was triggered when it's signal went beyond acceptable parameters. Alternatively it failed through overfuelling caused by air intrusion fooling the ECU to overfuel grossly. How has your fuel economy been?

My advice for what it's worth is find the crack in the pipe midsection and have it welded. The oil pressure sender has been updated with a new part but for reasons of economy rather than anything else. It needs a mounting piece as well and a swap to the connector. Has the bike ever had the throttle bodies removed for cleaning? If not it's well overdue. While this is being done do NOT move or interfere with the throttle stop screw or linkage rod adjustment.

Spend a handful of dollars on the cables and download and become familiar with Guzzidiag and the Reader and Writer programmes, learn to do your own servicing if your dealer is unreliable or you feel they are, there are few bikes easier to service and tune than a Guzzi. Once familiar with the Guzzidiag suite of tools I can send you a map that will transform your bike as long as it is stock or close to giving you not only smoother running but better fuel economy but ONLY if your machine is serviced and tuned correctly.

Pete


Only modifications are Stucchi crash bars and the mid sized Griso specific windscreen.

As for fuel economy it's hard to say. Because we are just now getting to warm weather.
And fuel mileage with this bike as varied greatly with changes to ambient temp, speed, and what type of roadway I'm on.

For instance.
In warm Summer months riding along back roads; I get mid to upper 40's mpg. On interstate keeping speeds under 70mph; low 40's.
On interstate keeping under 70mph and drafting a truck; I get as much as 60mpg.

During cold Winter months I generally stick to the interstate. And depending upon speeds, whether or not I'm drafting a truck, and whether or not the bike as warmed up.
My mpg can vary from below 30mpg to just slightly over 40mpg.

I did not ride much this Winter due to many snow falls and roads being treated.
It's the road treatment that stops me from riding; not the cold.
When I began riding in late March when the roads became clean and temps were still low.
I felt as though the average mpg had dropped. But my records of comparing March of last year to March of this year; indicate no change.
But records only track costs and average mpg; not ambient temps.

I normally do nearly all of my own servicing on all my vehicles and have the Centurion diag tool.
I only (reluctantly) took it to the dealer because of three reasons.
  • I was having trouble replicating the oil leak. Damn thing would not leak while running/reving motor in my drivway.
  • I could not get the gas tank back into place after removing it.
  • I expected both dealer and Guzzi themselves to be better at diagnosing ECU error #00 than myself.
    But as this incident shows; that is not the case. Sad

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« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2015, 06:56:20 pm »

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=2635

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=3116

MG Cycle have both gaskets in stock. You can have them midweek I'd guess. I haven't found a mid pipe but it might be worth calling both MG and Harpers if you want a new one.

The Centurion is I believe a descendent of the VDSTS product so it is probably expensive, complicated to use, needs constant expensive updates and will sometimes, frustratingly, not perform the tasks asked of it. It also has no provision for reading or writing maps which adds to its paperweight like qualities. I've never bothered with it as I have PADS the factory tool but in all honesty I never use that on machines that use the W5AM as Guzzidiag is so much more intuitive and works every time!

The oil pressure sender parts you require are. #641541 for the sender and #887123 for the adaptor. These too will almost certainly be on the shelf at MG or Harpers if Piaggio USA don't have them. (Edit. MG have the switch but not the adaptor. If you can't find one I have one in stock I can put in an air Mail bag if you can't find one easily. I recently sent one of each to some poor bloke in Canada who was getting the run-around from his dealer.)

FWIW if stuff isn't in stock here in Oz or the price is usurious I often order bits through AF1 in Texas and sometimes Piaggio USA stock ordering is perverse. I currently have a Griso that has run its big ends in pieces and needed big end shells. Piaggio USA had three in stock?!?   I mean what sort of cretin orders an odd number of bearing shells for stock? The mind boggles!

As for your tank issue it *may* be related to ethanol in the fuel but also make sure the breather system is venting properly. If the tank is pressurising it will swell.

Pete
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« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2015, 08:33:56 pm »




That was my original thought.
But there are some issues with performing this seemly simple task of getting the central exhaust welded.

First; that it's almost a guarantee that the clamps and gaskets will need to be replaced due to age and rust.
Second; the gaskets for the central exhaust are not available; ie they are back ordered with no ETA.
Third; friend of friend who may be able to weld it. Wants to see the exhaust OFF the bike to determine material and thickness.
Which is currently problematic as per first and second issues.


As a welder approaching a similar job, I would just assume it is thin, and MIG it in place. This is not rocket science?!
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« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2015, 11:55:23 pm »


Amount of miles is no excuse for:
  • dealer consistently ordering incorrect parts
  • major parts; or any parts; not being available for a bike that is only 4 years old
  • and most importantly; a manufacture saying they don't know their own ECU error codes and telling customer tough luck.


Not at all trying to excuse MG of their inability to help a customer.  All I'm saying is money may be better spent at this point on another ride, than to keep throw money at the goose.
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« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2015, 10:35:25 pm »

Op here,

I know my last reply to this thread was quite a while ago.
Thanks for the replies. And sorry if I left anyone hanging.

But I eventually got the Griso back from the dealer late May and passing inspection in mid June.

The dealer replaced the O2 and oil pressure sensors. And said they "rigged" the fuel tank so it would fit.
I'm afraid to take off the tank and learn what was meant by "rigged".
But they still left me with a possible ECU error #00.
Won't find out until chilly weather if that code has stopped.

After getting the Griso back.
I took it for a ride. It broke down within 12 miles !

I rode and parked at a local store.
When I went to leave. The Griso died within 1 foot.
I thought I stalled it. But it turned out to be that all electrical failed.
I called the dealer and gave them a few choice words.
They came and picked up me and the bike.
It turns out while working on the bike from before; they loosened a ground wire.
They didn't charge me for the towing; but they still charged me $70 for fixing the ground wire. (That they loosened while previously working on the bike. Grrr...)


After getting the Griso back. I had to wait until next payday to order the exhaust parts.
I re-ordered the mid-exhaust and gaskets.
I think I previously mentioned that I had originally ordered the exhaust back in early Dec. But by late Jan. got tired of waiting and demanded my money back.

The exhaust arrived in TWO hours ! And gaskets took two weeks.
Now how the hell does an exhaust that on first ordering; fail to arrive after nearly 60 days.
But on second ordering it arrives all the way from Atlanta, GA to Coopersburg, PA in TWO hours !
Something is really fishy with this dealer.


Anyway; after eventually getting the Griso all back together. I took it to another dealer ( Jap four ) and had it inspected.

So I have been riding it trouble free since then; until today.

During this past week it's odometer rolled over 100k miles:


Today I inspected the valves.
During the last couple valve checks. I thought the adjustment screws were getting a bit close to the nuts; but was not certain.
Well today proved they are. Most of the adjustment screws are nearly flush with the nuts:

Right exhaust:


Right intake:


Left intake:


Left exhaust:



And to throw just a little bit of salt on the wound.
I discovered one of the screws and it's well nut for the left bodywork had fallen off.
It turns out they did not put the screws back in the proper locations.
Each side piece of bodywork is held on with 1 long screw that pairs with a wellnut. And 2 short screws that screw directly into the frame.
They mixed up one of the short screws with the long screw. Hence the short screw did not hold to the wellnut; resulting in it and the wellnut falling off.
Fortunately I had the forethought to buy spare wellnuts and spare short screws. Now to buy spare long screws.

And I still owe $4,400 on the loan for this bike ! Sad


--ET
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« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2015, 08:31:20 am »

You may have the worst dealer on the planet! What a bunch of hacks!
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« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2015, 09:57:38 pm »


You may have the worst dealer on the planet! What a bunch of hacks!


My thoughts exactly!
And to think I almost took my Ducat 907ie down there (100mi.) for service!  

Thanks for the update...
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« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2015, 08:39:42 pm »

Et-

Its too bad your dealer is so un able to properly service your bike.  I had a Triumph and there was a local dealer when I got it, but they went TU in 2007 Sad

Its also why I am on a Yamaha now, and not either a BMW (closest dealer is 50+ miles away) or Triumph.

Not to be a turd, but you still owe on a 5 year old bike, that I think you bought new?? Rolleyes 
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« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2015, 09:18:04 pm »


You may have the worst dealer on the planet! What a bunch of hacks!


The local Suzuki dealer was even worse.
They had totally trashed a fuel injector on my GSXR; and would not admit it. Documented in another thread.

That was one of the reasons I bought a Guzzi.
I took a gamble that a dealer of more exotic motorcycles. Might have higher quality mechanics.
Silly me.  Rolleyes





My thoughts exactly!
And to think I almost took my Ducat 907ie down there (100mi.) for service!  

Thanks for the update...


I think nearly all dealer mechanics; motorcycle or car; are hacks.

I got spoiled by the dealer and independent shop back in NJ when I lived there.
The dealer had only a couple screw-ups in my 20+ years with them. PLUS they admitted their mistakes and corrected the situation pronto.
And the independent shop has never had any mistakes.




Et-

Its too bad your dealer is so un able to properly service your bike.  I had a Triumph and there was a local dealer when I got it, but they went TU in 2007 Sad

Its also why I am on a Yamaha now, and not either a BMW (closest dealer is 50+ miles away) or Triumph.

Not to be a turd, but you still owe on a 5 year old bike, that I think you bought new?? Rolleyes 


Only 3.5 years old to me.
It's a 2010 I bought in Dec 2011 as a leftover with no money down.


Unless this Griso goes another 200k with no major issues and the dealer improves their service.
When it comes to replace it; it will not be another European bike.

--ET
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« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2015, 01:48:07 am »

Don't ride or start it again. Your engine has eaten it's tappets.

Your cams and tappets will look like this.

]

]

Only yours will be much worse you can tell this because of how much adjustment has been taken up. Chances are you're almost at the point where the pushrods will drop through the foot of the tappets.

You'll need to drop the sump and remove and back-flush the oil cooler and I would highly recommend removing and inspecting the oil pumps as they will of been sucking huge chunks of tappet through themselves and will probably be junk.

Is there an up-side? Yes, if you have a full service history the factory will give you a roller conversion kit but you'll have to pay for installation. No service history? The kit will cost your between $1400-1800 depending on what kit you need. If your heads don't have the drill mark in the paint you'll need the 'C' kit. If they do you'll need the 'B' kit which is easier to install.

Instructions on how to go about installing the roller camboxes can be found here.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

I've done a lot of research on why the flat tappets fail and am pretty sure I have it nailed. Poor servicing is a major part of it though.

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« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2015, 06:26:29 am »

Thanks Pete.

I serviced this bike regularly; mostly myself; and kept all records.
I document everything with my vehicles. Even every fuel purchase.


If this is truly the case.
Then this Griso will be the biggest piece of shit vehicle I've ever bought !

I wonder if I have any legal recourse here in PA.
There is NO WAY I am going to pay $1400-1800 to buy parts that should not have failed.
In my opinion; this is a design flaw and/or poor craftsmanship and should be covered under a lemon law.

--ET
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« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2015, 07:26:41 am »

You kept adjusting the valve lash repeatedly as it kept opening up. Did this not suggest to you that there was a problem? Headscratch

If caught early and addressed properly there is little chance of serious damage. Riding it to death shows a paucity of mechanical sympathy that beggars belief. Did you not notice the fact it  started to not idle from cold and that the idle was slow when it warmed up? As the valve gaps opened up it would of become excessively noisy.

You say you serviced it yourself? What did you use to balance the throttle bodies? What software did you use for re-setting the TPS after the throttle body balance? Did you try and adjust the idle speed by moving the throttle stop screw? Are both the air bleeds open?

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« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2015, 06:04:36 pm »

I think the silence speaks volumes.

Look, there are issues with the flat tappet top end. But the fact that yours has gone 100,000 miles without being serviced correctly speaks volumes for the overall robustness of the design. 100,000 miles of neglect hardly makes a 'Lemon' in my book.

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« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2015, 07:52:47 pm »


I think the silence speaks volumes.

Look, there are issues with the flat tappet top end. But the fact that yours has gone 100,000 miles without being serviced correctly speaks volumes for the overall robustness of the design. 100,000 miles of neglect hardly makes a 'Lemon' in my book.

Pete


WHOA WHOA WHOA Pete  !

Who the hell said the bike hasn't been serviced correctly !

I've been silent; BECAUSE I'VE BEEN BUSY WORKING FOR A LIVING ALL DAY !

Just because I'm not a mechanic by trade; does not mean I don't know how to service my vehicles.
I may not have inside industry information or have long term experience with a particular vehicle; but I am not incompetent.


In your earlier reply you state:



...
Did you not notice the fact it  started to not idle from cold and that the idle was slow when it warmed up?
...


Where did I EVER say it was not idling correctly ?
It's been idling; and starting; perfectly fine all along.

As for:

You kept adjusting the valve lash repeatedly as it kept opening up. Did this not suggest to you that there was a problem? Headscratch
.
.
.


All my bikes have usually needed the valves to be tightened; not loosened.
So why would a little bit of tightening during each service be suggesting a problem with the Griso ?



I started this thread because people were interested in the amount of miles on my GSXR.
And were surprised after hitting the dear I switched from a "crotch rocket" to a Guzzi.

I provided long term updates because people replied to this thread asking wasn't it about time for another update.
To which I gave an update; and shortly after that update is when troubles began.

I gave this latest update about the valves. Because; as I said; I thought the adjuster screws were getting a bit close to the nuts.
And wanted second opinions.
Well I've gotten second opinions; both online here and in person.

I've had more second opinions; from motorcycle riders who do their own servicing, some Guzzi owners who do their own servicing, and motorcycle mechanics.
Stating that I have although the screws may look close to the nuts; they really are not and I have plenty of adjustment left.

Now since when I first got this Griso and learned about this model bike having a bad reputation for eating cams/tappets.
I was informed that most of the bad bikes were in the UK; not in the USA.
And that the cams in the bad bikes were failing within the first few thousand miles

Now with this information. The valves/cam/tappet situation could be one of these:
  • There is no issue, there is plenty of life remaining, and I am letting my imagination get the better of me.
  • The cams/tappets are bad and just took 100k miles to fail because I change the oils so damn much. I'm still a 3k to 4k oil change guy.
  • This is just the nature of air-cooled v-twin motors. In that they will require top end work every 100k.


Pete you are a valuable Guzzi resource.
There is no need to insult me saying that I did not service my Griso correctly; because I did the work myself instead of paying a dealer to do it.
I believe earlier in this thread; or maybe it was another thread on Guzzitech; that the dealer had corrupted the ECU after only two weeks of ownership.
Now do you really believe I would trust them to be doing the service on this Griso ??


As for it being a "lemon". That may be a bit harsh on my part. BUT
  • A broken mid-exhaust; that took months for a replacement to arrive,
  • a failed phase sensor,
  • a failed O2 sensor,
  • a failed oil pressure sensor,
  • a swollen fuel tank,
  • suspension that is below par for a bike it's size,
  • an alternator that needs replacing for a cost of $850.00 (although probably much cheaper if I can rebuild it or find equivalent car alternator).
  • an ECU error to which the dealer and/or Guzzi/Piaggio do not know the fix and tell me to ignore,
  • and having to deal with a questionable dealer.

Do not make it gem.

Forgive me if I did not mention all these issues in this thread.



Sorry;
--ET
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« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2015, 08:59:31 pm »

You didn't have to tell me that it wasn't idling from cold because that's what happens when the tappets go west. It changes the valve timing and after a point the ECU can't trim around it. Could this possibly be the source of your ECU error? If yours isn't displaying those symptoms it will be the only 8V in existence that defies the laws of physics!

There is a lot more to servicing a bike than changing its oil and setting the valve clearances. The reason I asked what software you were using and how you were balancing the TB's is because they are a VITAL part of the servicing and tuning regimen. The 8V is particularly sensitive to TB balance and TPS accuracy. If it isn't done correctly the machine will run sub-optimally and may end up damaging itself.

As for the valve lash? On a healthy flat tappet top end you will never have to adjust the lash by more than a thou or two. I can see from the adjusters that your tappets are 'Donald Ducked'. You can choose not to believe me, it's no skin off my nose, but if the feet of the tappets wear away completely the pushrod will fall through the bottom of the tappet, smash the cambox and probably cause catastrophic damage to the top end. If this happens when you are riding the results may well be severe injury or death. Just sayin'.

Before last summer I'd never seen a tappet failure on any 8V I'd serviced from new. Over the last eight months I've seen eight, including my own bike. I know what causes it and how and believe me, I know the symptoms well enough now that I can pick one where the tappets are beginning to fail simply from the way the engine behaves.

If you want further confirmation look at the tops of the tappets themselves. These are the 'Tubes' that the pushrods stick out of. On a healthy motor when the piston is at TDC compression, the point you check the lash with both valves closed and the tappets on the base circles of the cams, the tops of the tappets will sit ever so slightly, (1mm or so.) proud of the top of the cambox. If you look at yours you will find that they are now flush or below flush with the top of the cambox.

The longer you leave this the more damage you're doing and the greater the risk of injury to yourself or others.

I'll insert a pic shortly of the tappet/cambox protrusion.

Pete

A few more tappets. Yours will mow be in the terminal stage shown at the bottom of the pic!



And one showing the tops of the tappets. As you can see if you look carefully the top of the one I'm pointing to, (Exhaust.) is noticeably lower than the inlet one. This was caught very early in the piece. Yours will be a lot worse.


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« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2015, 09:52:56 pm »

Interesting thread.  Wink  I was rooting for the Guzzi lasting since I'm jonesing for an Eldorado.  Sad

Thanks for all the info.  Thumbsup

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« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2015, 03:37:44 am »


Interesting thread.  Wink  I was rooting for the Guzzi lasting since I'm jonesing for an Eldorado.  Sad

Thanks for all the info.  Thumbsup

                  JJ


Eldo is roller top end. Nothing to worry about.

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« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2015, 10:38:00 am »

Oh,a different motor.
A much better bike ?

                 JJ
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« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2015, 03:27:56 pm »

Similar motor, different bike.

The Cali variants use the same architecture as the earlier 8V's but were the first models to use the roller tappet top end. All of the 8V's now use the roller tappets and flat tappet bikes can be retrofitted with the roller camboxes. On some models it takes a bit more effort than others as the early bikes need to have their inlet valve springs shimmed for higher seating poundage to help eliminate float at higher RPM.

The 1400's also use a different engine management system and are twin plugged.

The history of tappet failure on the early 8V motors is quite convoluted and I won't bother repeating it here but the switch to the roller tappet design in late 2012 has cured the problems associated with the original design. All the Cali variants have been generally very reliable.

Pete
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« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2015, 05:51:30 pm »

Parts availability seems not so good.  Headscratch
Prices of those parts ?   EEK!
Resale,although I like to ride the wheels off my bikes the price of parts & service would trump resale for me.  

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« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2015, 09:29:41 pm »

You're talking yourself out of it aren't you? Lol

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« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2015, 09:40:06 pm »

Yea,I guess so.  Lol
I dig the bike and if it's reliable & the parts & service are reasonable & the parts availability is fast I could live with crappy resale.
My bikes are never worth anything by the time I'm done with them anyways.
My biggest gripe would be if it broke & I couldn't get a part to fix it and/or if that part was crazy expensive.

                                               JJ

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« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2015, 12:54:32 am »

What 'parts' are you expecting to need in a hurry? Are you planning on troweling it three times a week?

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« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2015, 09:46:00 am »


What 'parts' are you expecting to need in a hurry? Are you planning on troweling it three times a week?

Pete


Whatever parts that a Guzzi needs when it breaks.
Let's say it's the weekend & I'm miles from home and I need a drive belt or chain or have issues with a driveshaft,a cable,etc.
If a motor part fails are there readily available parts on the shelf in the USA ?
Could a "regular" mechanic help me out or does it have to be a Guzzi mechanic with very "special" tools.
How are the electronics ? England and Italy are kind of famous for failures.
Who makes the fuel injection & is it easy to service with reasonably priced parts ?
If I smash it up & need a tank,fenders,frame,etc. are they easy to come by at an affordable price ?
What is the resale value ?

                                           JJ
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« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2015, 01:01:26 am »

They tend not to break generally. They're as tough as old boots in most respects.

I can assure you if you bend a Cali frame the bike will be a write off! It's built like a girder bridge.

All the everyday consumables are readily available. Most you'll usually have to wait for anything, even weird stuff, is eight weeks unless it's in August.

Pete
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« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2015, 10:18:09 am »

Thanks Pete.  Bigok

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