Re: Replace my crashed GSXR with Griso - 3yr, 8 months 100,000 miles later.

[et]

Op here,

I know my last reply to this thread was quite a while ago.
Thanks for the replies. And sorry if I left anyone hanging.

But I eventually got the Griso back from the dealer late May and passing inspection in mid June.

The dealer replaced the O2 and oil pressure sensors. And said they "rigged" the fuel tank so it would fit.
I'm afraid to take off the tank and learn what was meant by "rigged".
But they still left me with a possible ECU error #00.
Won't find out until chilly weather if that code has stopped.

After getting the Griso back.
I took it for a ride. It broke down within 12 miles !

I rode and parked at a local store.
When I went to leave. The Griso died within 1 foot.
I thought I stalled it. But it turned out to be that all electrical failed.
I called the dealer and gave them a few choice words.
They came and picked up me and the bike.
It turns out while working on the bike from before; they loosened a ground wire.
They didn't charge me for the towing; but they still charged me $70 for fixing the ground wire. (That they loosened while previously working on the bike. Grrr...)


After getting the Griso back. I had to wait until next payday to order the exhaust parts.
I re-ordered the mid-exhaust and gaskets.
I think I previously mentioned that I had originally ordered the exhaust back in early Dec. But by late Jan. got tired of waiting and demanded my money back.

The exhaust arrived in TWO hours ! And gaskets took two weeks.
Now how the hell does an exhaust that on first ordering; fail to arrive after nearly 60 days.
But on second ordering it arrives all the way from Atlanta, GA to Coopersburg, PA in TWO hours !
Something is really fishy with this dealer.


Anyway; after eventually getting the Griso all back together. I took it to another dealer ( Jap four ) and had it inspected.

So I have been riding it trouble free since then; until today.

During this past week it's odometer rolled over 100k miles:


Today I inspected the valves.
During the last couple valve checks. I thought the adjustment screws were getting a bit close to the nuts; but was not certain.
Well today proved they are. Most of the adjustment screws are nearly flush with the nuts:

Right exhaust:


Right intake:


Left intake:


Left exhaust:



And to throw just a little bit of salt on the wound.
I discovered one of the screws and it's well nut for the left bodywork had fallen off.
It turns out they did not put the screws back in the proper locations.
Each side piece of bodywork is held on with 1 long screw that pairs with a wellnut. And 2 short screws that screw directly into the frame.
They mixed up one of the short screws with the long screw. Hence the short screw did not hold to the wellnut; resulting in it and the wellnut falling off.
Fortunately I had the forethought to buy spare wellnuts and spare short screws. Now to buy spare long screws.

And I still owe $4,400 on the loan for this bike !


--ET

[Sport-Touring]

[motrhead]

You may have the worst dealer on the planet! What a bunch of hacks!

[st2sam]

You may have the worst dealer on the planet! What a bunch of hacks!

My thoughts exactly!
And to think I almost took my Ducat 907ie down there (100mi.) for service!  

Thanks for the update...

[Cricket1]

Et-

Its too bad your dealer is so un able to properly service your bike.  I had a Triumph and there was a local dealer when I got it, but they went TU in 2007

Its also why I am on a Yamaha now, and not either a BMW (closest dealer is 50+ miles away) or Triumph.

Not to be a turd, but you still owe on a 5 year old bike, that I think you bought new??  

[et]

You may have the worst dealer on the planet! What a bunch of hacks!

The local Suzuki dealer was even worse.
They had totally trashed a fuel injector on my GSXR; and would not admit it. Documented in another thread.

That was one of the reasons I bought a Guzzi.
I took a gamble that a dealer of more exotic motorcycles. Might have higher quality mechanics.
Silly me.  

My thoughts exactly!
And to think I almost took my Ducat 907ie down there (100mi.) for service!  

Thanks for the update...

I think nearly all dealer mechanics; motorcycle or car; are hacks.

I got spoiled by the dealer and independent shop back in NJ when I lived there.
The dealer had only a couple screw-ups in my 20+ years with them. PLUS they admitted their mistakes and corrected the situation pronto.
And the independent shop has never had any mistakes.

Et-

Its too bad your dealer is so un able to properly service your bike.  I had a Triumph and there was a local dealer when I got it, but they went TU in 2007

Its also why I am on a Yamaha now, and not either a BMW (closest dealer is 50+ miles away) or Triumph.

Not to be a turd, but you still owe on a 5 year old bike, that I think you bought new??  

Only 3.5 years old to me.
It's a 2010 I bought in Dec 2011 as a leftover with no money down.


Unless this Griso goes another 200k with no major issues and the dealer improves their service.
When it comes to replace it; it will not be another European bike.

--ET

[Pete Roper]

Don't ride or start it again. Your engine has eaten it's tappets.

Your cams and tappets will look like this.

]

]

Only yours will be much worse you can tell this because of how much adjustment has been taken up. Chances are you're almost at the point where the pushrods will drop through the foot of the tappets.

You'll need to drop the sump and remove and back-flush the oil cooler and I would highly recommend removing and inspecting the oil pumps as they will of been sucking huge chunks of tappet through themselves and will probably be junk.

Is there an up-side? Yes, if you have a full service history the factory will give you a roller conversion kit but you'll have to pay for installation. No service history? The kit will cost your between $1400-1800 depending on what kit you need. If your heads don't have the drill mark in the paint you'll need the 'C' kit. If they do you'll need the 'B' kit which is easier to install.

Instructions on how to go about installing the roller camboxes can be found here.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

I've done a lot of research on why the flat tappets fail and am pretty sure I have it nailed. Poor servicing is a major part of it though.

Pete

[et]

Thanks Pete.

I serviced this bike regularly; mostly myself; and kept all records.
I document everything with my vehicles. Even every fuel purchase.


If this is truly the case.
Then this Griso will be the biggest piece of shit vehicle I've ever bought !

I wonder if I have any legal recourse here in PA.
There is NO WAY I am going to pay $1400-1800 to buy parts that should not have failed.
In my opinion; this is a design flaw and/or poor craftsmanship and should be covered under a lemon law.

--ET

[Pete Roper]

You kept adjusting the valve lash repeatedly as it kept opening up. Did this not suggest to you that there was a problem?

If caught early and addressed properly there is little chance of serious damage. Riding it to death shows a paucity of mechanical sympathy that beggars belief. Did you not notice the fact it  started to not idle from cold and that the idle was slow when it warmed up? As the valve gaps opened up it would of become excessively noisy.

You say you serviced it yourself? What did you use to balance the throttle bodies? What software did you use for re-setting the TPS after the throttle body balance? Did you try and adjust the idle speed by moving the throttle stop screw? Are both the air bleeds open?

Pete

[Pete Roper]

I think the silence speaks volumes.

Look, there are issues with the flat tappet top end. But the fact that yours has gone 100,000 miles without being serviced correctly speaks volumes for the overall robustness of the design. 100,000 miles of neglect hardly makes a 'Lemon' in my book.

Pete

[et]

I think the silence speaks volumes.

Look, there are issues with the flat tappet top end. But the fact that yours has gone 100,000 miles without being serviced correctly speaks volumes for the overall robustness of the design. 100,000 miles of neglect hardly makes a 'Lemon' in my book.

Pete

WHOA WHOA WHOA Pete  !

Who the hell said the bike hasn't been serviced correctly !

I've been silent; BECAUSE I'VE BEEN BUSY WORKING FOR A LIVING ALL DAY !

Just because I'm not a mechanic by trade; does not mean I don't know how to service my vehicles.
I may not have inside industry information or have long term experience with a particular vehicle; but I am not incompetent.


In your earlier reply you state:

...
Did you not notice the fact it  started to not idle from cold and that the idle was slow when it warmed up?
...

Where did I EVER say it was not idling correctly ?
It's been idling; and starting; perfectly fine all along.

As for:

You kept adjusting the valve lash repeatedly as it kept opening up. Did this not suggest to you that there was a problem?
.
.
.

All my bikes have usually needed the valves to be tightened; not loosened.
So why would a little bit of tightening during each service be suggesting a problem with the Griso ?



I started this thread because people were interested in the amount of miles on my GSXR.
And were surprised after hitting the dear I switched from a "crotch rocket" to a Guzzi.

I provided long term updates because people replied to this thread asking wasn't it about time for another update.
To which I gave an update; and shortly after that update is when troubles began.

I gave this latest update about the valves. Because; as I said; I thought the adjuster screws were getting a bit close to the nuts.
And wanted second opinions.
Well I've gotten second opinions; both online here and in person.

I've had more second opinions; from motorcycle riders who do their own servicing, some Guzzi owners who do their own servicing, and motorcycle mechanics.
Stating that I have although the screws may look close to the nuts; they really are not and I have plenty of adjustment left.

Now since when I first got this Griso and learned about this model bike having a bad reputation for eating cams/tappets.
I was informed that most of the bad bikes were in the UK; not in the USA.
And that the cams in the bad bikes were failing within the first few thousand miles

Now with this information. The valves/cam/tappet situation could be one of these:

• There is no issue, there is plenty of life remaining, and I am letting my imagination get the better of me.
• The cams/tappets are bad and just took 100k miles to fail because I change the oils so damn much. I'm still a 3k to 4k oil change guy.
• This is just the nature of air-cooled v-twin motors. In that they will require top end work every 100k.

Pete you are a valuable Guzzi resource.
There is no need to insult me saying that I did not service my Griso correctly; because I did the work myself instead of paying a dealer to do it.
I believe earlier in this thread; or maybe it was another thread on Guzzitech; that the dealer had corrupted the ECU after only two weeks of ownership.
Now do you really believe I would trust them to be doing the service on this Griso ??


As for it being a "lemon". That may be a bit harsh on my part. BUT

• A broken mid-exhaust; that took months for a replacement to arrive,
• a failed phase sensor,
• a failed O2 sensor,
• a failed oil pressure sensor,
• a swollen fuel tank,
• suspension that is below par for a bike it's size,
• an alternator that needs replacing for a cost of $850.00 (although probably much cheaper if I can rebuild it or find equivalent car alternator).
• an ECU error to which the dealer and/or Guzzi/Piaggio do not know the fix and tell me to ignore,
• and having to deal with a questionable dealer.

Do not make it gem.

Forgive me if I did not mention all these issues in this thread.



Sorry;
--ET

[Pete Roper]

You didn't have to tell me that it wasn't idling from cold because that's what happens when the tappets go west. It changes the valve timing and after a point the ECU can't trim around it. Could this possibly be the source of your ECU error? If yours isn't displaying those symptoms it will be the only 8V in existence that defies the laws of physics!

There is a lot more to servicing a bike than changing its oil and setting the valve clearances. The reason I asked what software you were using and how you were balancing the TB's is because they are a VITAL part of the servicing and tuning regimen. The 8V is particularly sensitive to TB balance and TPS accuracy. If it isn't done correctly the machine will run sub-optimally and may end up damaging itself.

As for the valve lash? On a healthy flat tappet top end you will never have to adjust the lash by more than a thou or two. I can see from the adjusters that your tappets are 'Donald Ducked'. You can choose not to believe me, it's no skin off my nose, but if the feet of the tappets wear away completely the pushrod will fall through the bottom of the tappet, smash the cambox and probably cause catastrophic damage to the top end. If this happens when you are riding the results may well be severe injury or death. Just sayin'.

Before last summer I'd never seen a tappet failure on any 8V I'd serviced from new. Over the last eight months I've seen eight, including my own bike. I know what causes it and how and believe me, I know the symptoms well enough now that I can pick one where the tappets are beginning to fail simply from the way the engine behaves.

If you want further confirmation look at the tops of the tappets themselves. These are the 'Tubes' that the pushrods stick out of. On a healthy motor when the piston is at TDC compression, the point you check the lash with both valves closed and the tappets on the base circles of the cams, the tops of the tappets will sit ever so slightly, (1mm or so.) proud of the top of the cambox. If you look at yours you will find that they are now flush or below flush with the top of the cambox.

The longer you leave this the more damage you're doing and the greater the risk of injury to yourself or others.

I'll insert a pic shortly of the tappet/cambox protrusion.

Pete

A few more tappets. Yours will mow be in the terminal stage shown at the bottom of the pic!



And one showing the tops of the tappets. As you can see if you look carefully the top of the one I'm pointing to, (Exhaust.) is noticeably lower than the inlet one. This was caught very early in the piece. Yours will be a lot worse.

[JamminJohn]

Interesting thread.    I was rooting for the Guzzi lasting since I'm jonesing for an Eldorado.  

Thanks for all the info.  

                  JJ

[Pete Roper]

Interesting thread.    I was rooting for the Guzzi lasting since I'm jonesing for an Eldorado.  

Thanks for all the info.  

                  JJ

Eldo is roller top end. Nothing to worry about.

Pete

[JamminJohn]

Oh,a different motor.
A much better bike ?

                 JJ

[Pete Roper]

Similar motor, different bike.

The Cali variants use the same architecture as the earlier 8V's but were the first models to use the roller tappet top end. All of the 8V's now use the roller tappets and flat tappet bikes can be retrofitted with the roller camboxes. On some models it takes a bit more effort than others as the early bikes need to have their inlet valve springs shimmed for higher seating poundage to help eliminate float at higher RPM.

The 1400's also use a different engine management system and are twin plugged.

The history of tappet failure on the early 8V motors is quite convoluted and I won't bother repeating it here but the switch to the roller tappet design in late 2012 has cured the problems associated with the original design. All the Cali variants have been generally very reliable.

Pete

[JamminJohn]

Parts availability seems not so good.  
Prices of those parts ?  
Resale,although I like to ride the wheels off my bikes the price of parts & service would trump resale for me.  

                                 JJ

[Pete Roper]

You're talking yourself out of it aren't you?

Pete

[JamminJohn]

Yea,I guess so.  
I dig the bike and if it's reliable & the parts & service are reasonable & the parts availability is fast I could live with crappy resale.
My bikes are never worth anything by the time I'm done with them anyways.
My biggest gripe would be if it broke & I couldn't get a part to fix it and/or if that part was crazy expensive.

                                               JJ

I'm jonesin' for a Bandit 1250 right now.
I wanted to like the Indian Scout but it's not that great of a bike.

[Pete Roper]

What 'parts' are you expecting to need in a hurry? Are you planning on troweling it three times a week?

Pete

[JamminJohn]

What 'parts' are you expecting to need in a hurry? Are you planning on troweling it three times a week?

Pete

Whatever parts that a Guzzi needs when it breaks.
Let's say it's the weekend & I'm miles from home and I need a drive belt or chain or have issues with a driveshaft,a cable,etc.
If a motor part fails are there readily available parts on the shelf in the USA ?
Could a "regular" mechanic help me out or does it have to be a Guzzi mechanic with very "special" tools.
How are the electronics ? England and Italy are kind of famous for failures.
Who makes the fuel injection & is it easy to service with reasonably priced parts ?
If I smash it up & need a tank,fenders,frame,etc. are they easy to come by at an affordable price ?
What is the resale value ?

                                           JJ