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Topic: Cornering Tips...  (Read 8939 times)

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Busy Little Whiner
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« on: December 05, 2006, 06:49:24 pm »

Hanging Off...
 Hanging a cheek off the seat works well because it sets your body in a
 stable position... but you must get into that position well before you roll off
 the gas... pull on the brakes or execute a steering input... hanging off and
 trying to steer the bike is a common mistake...
 
 
 Down Hill Decreasing radius turns :
 Follow the black line in this drawing and you'll see the common
 mistakes made on downhill decreasing radius turns... the rider enters
 at outer edge of their lane... they start turning too early at point
 (1)... they don't steer fast enough... and they end up going wide at
 the mid turn point (2)... they feel panic... they tighten up on the
 bars... they either drift into the on coming lane or brake and loose
 control... they will warn you that decreasing radius turns are not fun and
 should only be taken just above crawl speed...
 
 Now follow the preferred red line... the rider enters the turn more to
 the middle of their lane which affords a deeper line... you start the
 turn in point late... you push on the bars quickly... you spot the
 mid turn point and stay loose on the bars... you feel relaxed enough
 to start rolling on the gas... as you hit the mid turn point you are
 well within the friendly inside so feel free to give it some more berries
 at point (B)... you're having fun...
 
 
 
 
 Steps to corner like a pro:
 
 1 Find the your corners turn in point...
 2 After reaching your turn in point shift your eyes to the apex...
 3 Applied one quick steering input and leave the bars alone...
 4 Roll on the throttle as early as possible because the bike is now under
 the rear contact patch control... the front can actually be lifted off
 the ground and the bike will track on line...
 
 
 Done right and next time you'll be looking to take the corner with at
 least 1 more mph of speed... your bike will be stable... you'll feel in
 more control... maybe even relaxed like a pro...
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2006, 12:01:26 am »

There is this decreasing radius double apex turn at Miller.  It was my MOST favorite corner?  
 
WHY? Because I could take it FAST.
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2006, 12:11:35 pm »

Beginner tip.
 
Slow way the fcuk down prior to entering the curve.  Down shifting as necessary.  Then gradually increase the throttle thru the curve til you can see daylite.  Then shift up as appropriate while whacking the throttle as appropriate.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2006, 01:18:02 pm »

An "old timer" (40 yrs riding experience) told me to put my weight on the "inside" peg while turning.  I recently read in Twist of the Wrist II that I should put my weight on the "outside" peg while turning.  
 
So which is it?  or, is it just personal preference?
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2006, 01:33:29 pm »

Good question. I found myself squeezing my legs in such a manner, I can never tell what peg I am pushing on.
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dinolee

« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 02:13:18 pm »

Interesting approach.  Here's how we learned at Freddie Spencers to break a line down for a double apex.  We had a double apex at the Las Vegas IRC track.




For practice runs, Nick would have cones at the A and B apex, then a cone inside of the x apex. Affect was straighten out A and B as much as possible, and use X as the severe apex.  It would be interesting to try out both approaches.  It seems on the previous example, there's a 'hidden' apex on the red line when approaching the B text.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 02:18:04 pm by dinolee » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 04:22:48 pm »

Quote from: Raptor;13872
An "old timer" (40 yrs riding experience) told me to put my weight on the "inside" peg while turning. I recently read in Twist of the Wrist II that I should put my weight on the "outside" peg while turning.
 
So which is it? or, is it just personal preference?
It's the inside peg. Doesn't really help cornering much, but helps you feel safer. Try it. It works.
And I've been on sickles since 1970 and didn't learn this one until 5 years ago! Smile
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dinolee

« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 05:09:00 pm »

Quote from: Cpl Punishment;14206
It's the inside peg. Doesn't really help cornering much, but helps you feel safer.
Yes, it does help immensely with cornering.  Read Ienatsch's 'Sport Riding Techniques', or google the keywords 'inside peg cornering'.
Quote from: Raptor
I recently read in Twist of the Wrist II that I should put my weight on the "outside" peg while turning.  
 
So which is it?  or, is it just personal preference?
Code's techinque is just a different way of getting around a track.  The debate has raged for eon's about the best technique, Code vs. Spencer vs. Pridmore vs. Schwantz vs. Barney the Dinosaur.  It's really up to the rider to implement what makes the most sense to them.  Personally, I follow the Spencer/Ienatsch technique, mixing in a little philosophy from Code.  Others swear and defend to the death, using only the Keith Code technique.  Shrug

Here's a Google cached page from the S-T.n version 1.0 archive, by Kitkat giving her opinion of inside vs. outside peg.  Good information, to be considered on an individual basis.
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 05:14:57 pm »

Quote from: dinolee;14001
Interesting approach. Here's how we learned at Freddie Spencers to break a line down for a double apex. We had a double apex at the Las Vegas IRC track.
 

 

Dinolee just a word of caution.  That line is great for the track.  No so great for the street.  In fact the line at the top and yours both suck for the street if you know there is a descreasing radius corner coming up.  It puts you too close to on coming cars at the wrong time.
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2006, 05:20:29 pm »

Quote from: Raptor;13872
An "old timer" (40 yrs riding experience) told me to put my weight on the "inside" peg while turning. I recently read in Twist of the Wrist II that I should put my weight on the "outside" peg while turning.
 
So which is it? or, is it just personal preference?

 
Not that it would matter for mere mortals, but I once saw an interview with on of the GP riders. His technique was "I push on the inside peg if I want the back end to come around more and the outside if I want it to come around less" ?? This was from the 500cc 2 stroke days.
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 08:34:23 pm »

Quote from: Raptor;13872
An "old timer" (40 yrs riding experience) told me to put my weight on the "inside" peg while turning.  I recently read in Twist of the Wrist II that I should put my weight on the "outside" peg while turning.  
 
So which is it?  or, is it just personal preference?

Actually, he does not say "put your weight" on the outside peg.  He says, "push on the outside peg."  He goes into some detail about pushing on the outside peg to give you an anchor to give you more force with your arm.  He calls it "power steering."

All your weight could be on the inside peg the way he describes it.
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2006, 08:43:38 pm »

Quote from: Raptor;13872
An "old timer" (40 yrs riding experience) told me to put my weight on the "inside" peg while turning. I recently read in Twist of the Wrist II that I should put my weight on the "outside" peg while turning.
 
So which is it?  or, is it just personal preference?

Who can say what the "Old Timer" knows... I've met a lot of Old Timers with
40 50 and even 60 years experience who can't break their riding down in
technical terms...  they are really not all that much help because they have a lot
natural talent and don't give their riding a whole lot of thought... they just get
on the thing and ride like the Devil... however old timer Keith Code will break
down the riding in technical terms that will... given the chance... produce results...
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2006, 08:32:21 pm »

Quote from: Thor;14621
Actually, he does not say "put your weight" on the outside peg. He says, "push on the outside peg." He goes into some detail about pushing on the outside peg to give you an anchor to give you more force with your arm. He calls it "power steering."
 
All your weight could be on the inside peg the way he describes it.

Actually, what he says on p.85 is "Using the outside peg as your pivot point--while pressure applied to the bars, either by just pushing or using a combination of push and pull--reduces your weight on the seat and puts the majority of your weight on that lower, outside peg.
 
"In fact, since your weight is now closer to the center-of-mass for the machine, the bike is much easier to steer."  
 
I'm guessing each rider must experiment and do what suits his own riding style.  
 
Thanks for all the replies...need to go experiment.
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2006, 09:29:54 pm »

Quote from: Busy Little Shop;12596


 
Steps to corner like a pro:
 
1 Find the your corners turn in point...
2 After reaching your turn in point shift your eyes to the apex...
3 Applied one quick steering input and leave the bars alone...
4 Roll on the throttle as early as possible because the bike is now under
the rear contact patch control... the front can actually be lifted off
the ground and the bike will track on line...
 

Pretty broad bush you're painting with.  The prefered line shown works well for some types of turns, especially at the end of a long straight where you want to keep the top speed you gained in the straight as long as possible by using an exagerated late apex. However if this turn was not at the end of a hi-speed straight it or the exit didn't allow for hard acceleration then a more classic apex would be better IMHO.
 
The reason I say this is I started out apexing early like almost all noobs do, then after much coaching I started late apexing everything. Finally another coach took the time to break it down for me and showed me that a late apex is not a magical cure all. Shaved 2 seconds off my time on that particular track after learning when to use different lines for different corners.
 
But I gotta say 1) This ain't exactly noob material.
 
2) Trying out any advice one picks up on the internet (mine or anyone elses) that involves life & limb is a fools game. Nothing beats some one on one with someone who can demonstrate and therefore prove a technique works.
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2006, 12:37:23 am »

Quote from: Windblown;17963
But I gotta say 1) This ain't exactly noob material.
 

I wished I'd known this material when I was a noob... I would have enjoyed
downhill decreasing radius turns a lot sooner...
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2006, 12:41:08 am »

Quote from: Raptor;17903
 
 Thanks for all the replies...need to go experiment.

You're welcome... post your success...
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2006, 12:43:20 am »

Quote from: Raptor;17903
Actually, what he says on p.85 is "Using the outside peg as your pivot point--while pressure applied to the bars, either by just pushing or using a combination of push and pull--reduces your weight on the seat and puts the majority of your weight on that lower, outside peg.
 
"In fact, since your weight is now closer to the center-of-mass for the machine, the bike is much easier to steer."  
 
I'm guessing each rider must experiment and do what suits his own riding style.  
 
Thanks for all the replies...need to go experiment.

You actually have to go to his school to get the real skinny.

I agree that you have to fine tune (experiment), but this is the beginner section and their is no substitute for the basic fundamentals.

If you don't strictly adhere to and learn the fundamentals you will be riding too close to the edge, and when something happens where you panic or get a little over your head, you will go right over that edge.

I ride with a number of riders every year who are able to go very fast, but they do almost everything wrong - to some degree.  They are probably riding at 98% most of the time.  They think they are doing it correctly because the don't fall down.

I would say that easily 50% of these riders toss their bike down the road at least once a year.  They get in a situation where 2% wiggle room isn't enough to save them.

Since they don't adhere to the fundamentals, they constantly blame outside factors for their crashes.  Some of these riders have been riding for 20 years.

The key to learning fundamentals is to "go slow to learn fast" and take little steps with your actually riding.

You can read all sorts of theories in books and on the internet, but if you don't start with the simple basics and practice them with actual riding, it is just a whole bunch of worthless noise.

One key thing that never seems to be touched on is the practicality of asking another rider to watch you ride.

What you "think" you are doing on the motorcycle has little or no relation to what you are actually doing.   Have you ever gone into a corner and not leveled your head with the horizon?  If feels like you are going upside down.  You aren't.

Even riders who aren't as skilled as you are can see things that don't look right.  We always want to help other riders, but we don't want to bruise anyones ego by offering unsolicited advice.  

Ask someone to watch you.  I have found that I learn the most from the input of other riders and a year does not go by when I don't ask someone to watch me and where I don't learn something that makes my riding safer and more enjoyable.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2006, 04:54:32 am »

LOL, you guys analyze too much....lean and make the turn.
 
Inside, outside....whatever you like. If you make the turn safely and efficiently, who cares how you do it!!
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2006, 09:01:22 am »

Quote from: weegee96;18306
LOL, you guys analyze too much....lean and make the turn.
 
Inside, outside....whatever you like. If you make the turn safely and efficiently, who cares how you do it!!

I think you're making Thor's point.
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2006, 01:37:24 pm »

Quote
I ride with a number of riders every year who are able to go very fast, but they do almost everything wrong - to some degree. They are probably riding at 98% most of the time. They think they are doing it correctly because the don't fall down.
Quote
The key to learning fundamentals is to "go slow to learn fast" and take little steps with your actually riding.

I once watched in horror as a young lady on a new Sportster with temp tags, slowed to a almost complete stop, and then turned trying her best to keep the bike from leaning.  This on a rural highway with a 55 MPH speed limit.  
 
You can't learn how to do it, reading a book.  Got to learn the fundamentals, and build with care.  
 
Good post Thor.  
 
Ride safe.
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2006, 04:46:19 pm »

Quote from: Raptor;18373
I think you're making Thor's point.

 
I agree, but mine was simpler Wink
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2006, 02:37:02 am »

I know this has been mentioned before, but David Hough's book Proficient motorcycling has excellent info on street riding and lines through corners (amongst other things).  Looking through the corner is the most important thing.  On my first ride in a group we were going throught a left hander, at very easy speed, nowhere near the maximum speed for this gentle sweeper, and one of the group suddenly ended up on the shoulder!  Luckily, the shoulder was hard packed dirt and he was going slow enought not to dumpt the bike, but this was a great illustration of the target fixation concept.  For some reason, he started looking at the outside of the turn and ended up exactly where he was looking.  We all learned a lesson from that mistake, I hope.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2006, 08:32:48 am »

To reiterate county's and Corwin's points and taking into account that this is the beginner's forum:

Slow down before the turn and
Look where you are going because you WILL go where you are looking.

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