do i expect too much

[Open Sore]

I sold an old motorcycle, that wasn't running, for what I thought was a very fair discount.  the person buying the motorcycle showed up $200 light.
against my better judgement I allowed the bike to leave while holding the title to it.
I was told I'd have the balance due the next day, unfortunately it's now been over eight days.
the $200 is not going to make or break me, but I feel like a sucker for believing him.
what do you guys  did I do the right thing trusting, and putting faith into what he told me.  OR am I an idiot for believing somebody that I don't know.

[Sport-Touring]

[Bounce]

Bill of sale with the details & signature by both?

If not, then maybe not an idiot but clearly clueless and too trusting of strangers.

[DangerMoney]

Yes.  The money isn't the only reason.

Someone tried the same offer on me when I was selling a bike. I talked to my insurance company and they said if the person riding it gets into an accident and gets hurt,  I can be sued by them because  I still own the bike. They also said if the person causes an accident and a third party gets hurt, I can be sued by the third party because it's still my bike. Insurance company said, "DO NOT ACCEPT THE OFFER!"

[JimWilliamson]

? Try to contact the buyer and say that if they do not show up with the funds to complete the transaction you'll call the police and report the bike as stolen ?  (might this help reduce any [unlikely] insurance issue down the road)

[GTS_Rider]

Just post his Name, Phone# here. Sometimes I get bored, and believe I can't be the only one that will call him up to give words of encouragement to pay up.  

Though, sounds like it was a buy to part it out, and really he doesn't give a shit about the title...

Maybe he'd pay up, if he realizes changing his phone# might be more of a hassle than just paying up...

[Blunder]

? Try to contact the buyer and say that if they do not show up with the funds to complete the transaction you'll call the police and report the bike as stolen ?  (might this help reduce any [unlikely] insurance issue down the road)

Very gray area, methinks.

Do you still have a key? Do you know where the bike is parked? Do you get where I'm going with this? You still hold the title, right? There was no bill of sale, right? If you have any big and angry looking friends and all the answers to the above are yes....the stars may be aligned for you. At the very least you'll get your $200.

It's just a suggestion.

[blackbuell]

 sounds like it was a buy to part it out, and really he doesn't give a shit about the title...

Could be the case. If true, you are dealing with a person who will only pay up if they are somehow forced to. Good luck.

Jon

[Rattlehead]

People are self-centered, self-serving, moral-less scumbags any more who only look out for THEIR best interests. When you believe this to be true you can be pleasantly surprised when someone proves you wrong and you’ll never be taken advantage of by the rest.

[vulcanbill]

I think you're lucky that you've not experienced the things in the volume that make the rest of us so jaded and untrusting.  But now you're getting there.  A couple more attempts to take advantage of your kindness and your spidey senses will be appropriately tuned to "they're all out to get me".  Sad truth of doing private party business sometimes.

[bomber]

While I won't allow myself to get as jaded as some, when doing business with people I don't know, the details of the deal should be carried out to the letter of the agreement.

Otherwise, no deal.

[Cobalt]

Yes.  The money isn't the only reason.

Without a notarized title showing the new buyer's name, or a notarized bill of sale, you're likely on the hook for anything that happens out in the world with that bike. He gets it running and kills a nun... you're on tap. He lights it on fire in the middle of the mall... you're on tap. He abandons it and it racks up $2300 in towing and storage charges... you're on tap.

I got burned by this once. Never again.

[Mr.Black]

Report it stolen and move on because that's what he did.

[zer0netgain]

Report it stolen and move on because that's what he did.

THIS.

You can rescind the report if and when he pays the balance and you transfer the title.  It's not a false report if he took the property and failed to pay the balance and doesn't hold legal title.

[Cablebandit]

And if it was insured you can doubly profit.

[tjhess74]

honestly, i highly doubt the police will touch this situation.  of course, it will ultimately depend on your state laws, but most states will consider this a civil matter and thus, out of the polices jurisdiction.  this is a classic breach of contract in which the police are powerless to do anything.  the contract in this case is verbal, so in other words, your word against his.

if the bill of sale/title has been signed over to him, i would just stuff it in his mailbox and move on.  i would think that if its been signed over you would be out of liability since he is the technical owner, not you.  if it hasnt been signed yet, pray he doesnt get the bike up and running!

[nonposter]

In Texas, there is a form you can fill out and submit to the DPS to show you transferred ownership of the car/bike to another person. This is to help you in the case where someone never transfers a title out of your name (leaving you financially responsible). I believe you have 60 days to turn in the form, but everyone I talk to recommends you do it ASAP.

If you are not going to report it stolen (and I am not sure you will get anywhere with that), then I would check to see if they have a similar form in your state. At least you will not be financially responsible if he does something stupid.

[Mr.Black]

honestly, i highly doubt the police will touch this situation.  of course, it will ultimately depend on your state laws, but most states will consider this a civil matter and thus, out of the polices jurisdiction.  this is a classic breach of contract in which the police are powerless to do anything.  the contract in this case is verbal, so in other words, your word against his.

if the bill of sale/title has been signed over to him, i would just stuff it in his mailbox and move on.  i would think that if its been signed over you would be out of liability since he is the technical owner, not you.  if it hasnt been signed yet, pray he doesnt get the bike up and running!

For CYA only.

[Cobalt]

if the bill of sale/title has been signed over to him, i would just stuff it in his mailbox and move on.  i would think that if its been signed over you would be out of liability since he is the technical owner, not you.  if it hasnt been signed yet, pray he doesnt get the bike up and running!

Bingo.

[Cobalt]

Let's clear a few things up...

The bike is NOT stolen. Reporting it so will result in badness and woe; police don't like falsified reports. There was a deal discussed, and the OP willingly let the vehicle leave. It is not stolen. Period. End of story.

[zer0netgain]

For CYA only.

+1

Cops might do nothing, but they can't refuse to let you file a stolen property report.  If he tries to get it running and get it titled (or just transfer the frame), it will come up as stolen.

[zer0netgain]

The bike is NOT stolen. Reporting it so will result in badness and woe; police don't like falsified reports. There was a deal discussed, and the OP willingly let the vehicle leave. It is not stolen. Period. End of story.

If he has the bike, paid only part of the price, does not possess the signed title or have it retitled in his name, as far as the law is concerned, he does not own the bike.

If you walk out of a diner with a $50 tab but hand the owner $25 and say you'll come back with the other $25 and do not, it's still theft.

[Cobalt]

If he has the bike, paid only part of the price, does not possess the signed title or have it retitled in his name, as far as the law is concerned, he does not own the bike.

If you walk out of a diner with a $50 tab but hand the owner $25 and say you'll come back with the other $25 and do not, it's still theft.

I doubt that it would hold up. The difference is he (the seller) LET the bike leave with the buyer; the diner isn't LETTING me leave.

[zer0netgain]

I doubt that it would hold up. The difference is he (the seller) LET the bike leave with the buyer; the diner isn't LETTING me leave.

In his case, it's theft by fraud.  The buyer lied to get possession of the property but never followed through on the promise.  The cops are happy to let this run as a civil matter, but that doesn't stop him from filing a criminal complaint so that the VIN number can be flagged at the DMV and reported as stolen.  Yeah, he won't get money from his insurance company, but it protects him as compared to doing nothing.  A civil suit will not do jack with the title and VIN number.

Remember, we're talking about CYA for his interests.  He can live without the $200 owed, but he doesn't want to be legally liable if something happens with HIS property while in the buyer's hands.

[Max Wedge]

What if it was a test ride and he never returned? You let it leave, but it was supposed to come back. If it was to come back if the other $200 was not paid, it was theft. *Just playing devil's advocate.*

[blackbuell]

OS,

Please follow up on this to let us know how it turned out, even if it takes a long time to be resolved,

Jon

[Cobalt]

If you finance a car and don't pay it, the police don't come arrest you for theft. The creditor sues you in civil court and the court enters an order against you.

If you can go ahead and get the cops to write it up, have at it. I really doubt they will, though.

[zer0netgain]

If you finance a car and don't pay it, the police don't come arrest you for theft. The creditor sues you in civil court and the court enters an order against you.

If you can go ahead and get the cops to write it up, have at it. I really doubt they will, though.

When you finance the car, the creditor pays the seller in full.  If you don't pay, it's a breach of contract issue because you agreed to timely, regular payments, and the title is in YOUR name with the creditor listed as a lien holder.  Significant difference.

Even then, if you did some really stinky moves to get a lot of goods on credit then skip town, you could be charged with an intent to defraud the creditor.  If you just stop making payments later down the line, it's not the same thing.

[Cobalt]

We're splitting hairs. In the real world, OS let the bike go with a partial payment. In the real world he'll be told "That was stupid. You should file a civil suit against him."

[MisterSmooth]

In Texas, there is a form you can fill out and submit to the DPS to show you transferred ownership of the car/bike to another person. This is to help you in the case where someone never transfers a title out of your name (leaving you financially responsible). I believe you have 60 days to turn in the form, but everyone I talk to recommends you do it ASAP.

If you are not going to report it stolen (and I am not sure you will get anywhere with that), then I would check to see if they have a similar form in your state. At least you will not be financially responsible if he does something stupid.

Washington State has this, too.  I'd recommend you fill out this form ASAP so officially the State knows that you sold the bike.  Then, anything happens it's not your problem.

As for the $200?  Write it off to experience.  Guy who stiffed you is a self-serving asshole.

[poffpaul]

OS,

Please follow up on this to let us know how it turned out, even if it takes a long time to be resolved,

Jon

^ This. I once sold a car by payments of $100 at a time (because I too have been on the payment end and been grateful someone worked something out with me) and they made the first two and then split. I never recovered the car, and never heard back about it again. This was about 6 years ago, and I never attempted to follow up, not knowing the liability issues.   I take it I was lucky nothing ever came back on me?

[Dan K]

if the bill of sale/title has been signed over to him, i would just stuff it in his mailbox and move on.  i would think that if its been signed over you would be out of liability since he is the technical owner, not you.  if it hasnt been signed yet, pray he doesnt get the bike up and running!

KEEP A COPY OF EVERYTHING. I'd still report it as stolen after a down payment.

[Open Sore]

Heard back from the 'buyer', I will supposedly be getting the balance due, this weekend.  I work with a close friend of his, which is why I let it go without payment in full.  Had that not been the case, I would have just pushed it back in the garage and said see you when you have it all.

It was very frustrating not getting returned calls for a few days in a row.  I would have been happier if he just called and said - I'm sorry I need some extra time to get the cash is next weekend okay?  Basically the money wasn't the biggest issue with me.  It was being told a lie, and then feeling like an idiot for trusting someone.

[nonposter]

That is good news. Glad you did not have to escalate it

I would still look for and fill out the title transfer doc from the DPS, to prove you sold him the bike. If he is having issues getting cash for purchase, I imagine he will have some trouble getting cash to put the title in his name (assuming he even intends to do that). 30 min of your time could save you thousands of dollars.

[Cobalt]

Heard back from the 'buyer', I will supposedly be getting the balance due, this weekend.  I work with a close friend of his, which is why I let it go without payment in full.  Had that not been the case, I would have just pushed it back in the garage and said see you when you have it all.

It was very frustrating not getting returned calls for a few days in a row.  I would have been happier if he just called and said - I'm sorry I need some extra time to get the cash is next weekend okay?  Basically the money wasn't the biggest issue with me.  It was being told a lie, and then feeling like an idiot for trusting someone.

Glad it's working out (or seems to be).  

[bomber]

Being trusting (specially with the connection you have to this person) isn't idiocy . . . . .

Do you want to be the guy that doens't trust anyone?

[Dan K]

Being trusting (specially with the connection you have to this person) isn't idiocy . . . . .

Do you want to be the guy that doens't trust anyone?

There's a time and a place for everything, Bomber. Selling a bike to someone you don't know? Bike stays in my garage until paid in full, unless the friend I work with says he'll cover the rest if the buyer doesn't come through.

Trust means I'll take a deposit and hold the bike, passing up other opportunities to sell, because I trust you'll come back and pay the rest.

- Dan

[kyzrex]

We sold my sons truck to a private party and received payment in full, everything fine right?

Not so fast my friend.....6mths later we received a letter from the state of Indiana saying that MY truck could be picked up at an impound lot, after I paid the fines and storage fees.  The new owner had never transferred the title.  As far as I know, that truck is still sitting there.  I ended up having to pay Kentucky property tax for the next year, as the new owner never filed for a title in his name and as far as the state was concerned, I still owned the truck.

Ever since, I have made it a point on any vehicle I sell to go right down to the county office and have the vehicle taken off my ownership records as soon as the vehicle leaves my possession.

[MorrisGray]

I do not think you expected too much at all. What I do think is that our society now days are full of irresponsible and untrustworthy sorry arse people. I am glad this subject came up because it made me think about it seriously as I have done such things before myself.

I financed a car to someone I worked with before, my boss for his son. My payments were consistently late, he quit the job and left before I was paid in full. Could have been bad but by the time he left, he had paid enough that he needed to pay me off so he could get the title. So I lucked out there.

Did same with a motorcycle and a coworker. Coworker died at age 28. I had to repossess the bike from his widow.

Many times I have sold car/bike to someone. Paid in full. Sign title and give them a bill-of-sale. Off they go.
But now that I think of it, that is not good for me unless I have a copy of the bill-of-sale and notarized even better. And have their name filled in on the title and make myself a copy. A lot of people who buy and sell don't want their names on the title. They just want it signed by you and left open until they sell it so they pay no taxes or insurance or whatever on it.

Regardless of what you do otherwise, they can leave with the title you gave them, the bill of sale you gave them, and throw them away if they wish and how are you protected or how can you prove that they bought it from you? They could hurt someone else or use it in a criminal act such as bank robbery or such. Police will come looking for you! I guess they would if they are able to get identification off of it. And thinking of this I believe you should get proof of identification and make a copy of that too! They could give you a false identity!

Wow... Lot of bad possibilities could happen if you think about it.

Agree?

[nonposter]

MorrisGray,

That is exactly why the Texas DPS has a form you can fill out that says you sold a car to a particular individual.

[tjhess74]

im glad the op is seeing a possible resolution.

some of you guys are confusing apples with oranges, and it could lead to giving bad advice someday.  civil law and criminal law are mutually exclusive.  police, and their paperwork, have no jurisdiction in any civil matters. the only time the police can come close to enforcing a civil judgement is typically in family court matters, bet even then it can be a dicey deal.

again, it does vary by state, but most police departments will not write a 'stolen property' report when it is clearly a civil breach of contract, not theft.  you cant have both!  the op and the buyer made a verbal deal, a contract.  the buyer has failed to hold up his end of that contract.  it is not a criminal matter and very few police departments 'have to' write a report just because someone wants one for a matter outside of police jurisdiction.  if its a police matter, then that is a different story.

the example of the diner only paying half is misguided.  if the owner lets the patron leave on the word of coming to pay later, then that is a civil contract that the two parties intervened in, and thus not a crime.  if the patron dined-n-dashed by shorting the bill, then that would be a criminal theft matter.

would the op lose anything by calling the police and asking if they can help? of course not, but i wouldnt hold my breath in this case.  the advice of filling out the transfer of ownership paperwork asap is solid.

[mcrider007]

Your top priority when selling any motor vehicle is the transfer of financial liability.  What that takes varies from state to state but I really doubt that this individual is going to place any priority on transferring the title to his name once you give it to him.  At this point I would insist on accompanying him to the appropriate office to verify the title is actually transferred.

[Leanintree]

I never understand these threads…  When I sell a vehicle,  I keep the plates. Without plates,  it hasn't been re-registered,  so new owner is responsible for registering to avoid being pulled over all the time. I keep my bill of sale,  but have never had to produce one.   No issues.
LT

[Bounce]

In some states the plates are assigned to the person. Elsewhere they are assigned to the vehicle. In TX, OK, AR, LA, NM they go with the vehicle.

[FJR1300]

Report it stolen and move on because that's what he did.

THIS.

You can rescind the report if and when he pays the balance and you transfer the title.  It's not a false report if he took the property and failed to pay the balance and doesn't hold legal title.

Okay... NOW you REALLY have no idea of what you are talking about. Once ANY cash was transferred between parties, it became a CIVIL issue.

I hope nobody ever takes any of your "legal" advice because you are going to get someone hurt.

[FJR1300]

If he has the bike, paid only part of the price, does not possess the signed title or have it retitled in his name, as far as the law is concerned, he does not own the bike.

If you walk out of a diner with a $50 tab but hand the owner $25 and say you'll come back with the other $25 and do not, it's still theft.

Your stupidity is actually starting to piss me off, so please stop dispensing legal advice. If you walk out without paying a bill, that's theft. If you make an AGREEMENT to pay part of it now and return later with the rest, that's a civil issue and there is nothing the police can do about your problem.

NOTE: When vehicles are involved, a few states have some laws allowing for criminal action. It is still not theft so please do not listen to this idiot because it's not good advice.

 

[2RR2NV]

Without a notarized title showing the new buyer's name, or a notarized bill of sale, you're likely on the hook for anything that happens out in the world with that bike. He gets it running and kills a nun... you're on tap. He lights it on fire in the middle of the mall... you're on tap. He abandons it and it racks up $2300 in towing and storage charges... you're on tap.

I got burned by this once. Never again.

DAYUM!!!!!  are you sure you're not related to Murphy?  i thought i had bad luck, but you win. i can not hold a candle to your misfortunes.  

[bluepoof]

In TX, OK, AR, LA, NM they go with the vehicle.

California, too, unless you have personalized plates that you want to keep.

[falconati]

When is this going to move to the Legal EOE sub-forum?  

[Open Sore]

Well the weekend came and went without hearing from him.  Talked to him this morning, he now has concerns that he hears a knock in the bottom end, but the bike isn't running yet, since he has yet to clean the carbs.  

As far as the concerns with the liability of transferring ownership, the bike left with no plates or registration.  In NY the plates stay with the registrant until turned in, they do not stay with the vehicle.

So if he does go out and ride it, it will be evident that he was on it illegally.

I wish I just parted the thing out.

[Cobalt]

Well the weekend came and went without hearing from him.  Talked to him this morning, he now has concerns that he hears a knock in the bottom end, but the bike isn't running yet, since he has yet to clean the carbs.  

As far as the concerns with the liability of transferring ownership, the bike left with no plates or registration.  In NY the plates stay with the registrant until turned in, they do not stay with the vehicle.

So if he does go out and ride it, it will be evident that he was on it illegally.

I wish I just parted the thing out.

  Sorry, man. That sucks.

[Dan K]

Well the weekend came and went without hearing from him.  Talked to him this morning, he now has concerns that he hears a knock in the bottom end, but the bike isn't running yet, since he has yet to clean the carbs.  

As far as the concerns with the liability of transferring ownership, the bike left with no plates or registration.  In NY the plates stay with the registrant until turned in, they do not stay with the vehicle.

So if he does go out and ride it, it will be evident that he was on it illegally.

I wish I just parted the thing out.

As is = as is.  Did he say he won't pay?

[bomber]

Am I reading this right? He thinks he hears a knock in the bottom end of the engine but it's not running yet?

[Open Sore]

That is correct.  He said he hears a knock, while it is turning over.  The bike is not running.  I told him it needs a carb clean above all else.  He has put in fresh gas and a battery, so it will turn over, but it did not fire.  Which is no surprise to me.

[Cobalt]

That is correct.  He said he hears a knock, while it is turning over.  The bike is not running.  I told him it needs a carb clean above all else.  He has put in fresh gas and a battery, so it will turn over, but it did not fire.  Which is no surprise to me.

He's just trying to snake you on the money. You can't hear a valid rod knock with the starter. There's too much going on with the starter, clutch basket noise, starter clutch, starter chain (if it has one), etc. It would have to be egregiously bad to hear it... like, the rod hanging out through a hole in the side of the block kind of bad.  

[bomber]

^ Chris is correct.

[Cobalt]

^ Chris is correct.

 

[Open Sore]

Yeah, I thought some on the board would appreciate the knock in the engine, without it running.

I mentioned it might be time to start discussing interest on the money owed.  He is now saying he will get it to me by Wednesday.  I'll keep you guys posted.

[Cobalt]

Also, the bike isn't stolen.

[bomber]

 

[FJR1300]

Also, the bike isn't stolen.

Are you sure?

[coucours grad]

How dare you expect full payment for your motorcycle...


Daawg, the bro is entitled to that bike and you are just trying to keep him down.


   Cut the dude some slack.



NOT

[Dan K]

Tell him to give you back the bike and you'll give him his money back next Tuesday.

[Open Sore]

Well the BS came to an end on Saturday.  I was away on vacation for a week, when I came home he was still talking about the engine noise.

I went to his house, the noise was starter noise.

I gave him back his $300 and took my bike back (1985 Ninja 900).

He definitely bit off more than he could chew.  He left the carb boots (Between the air box and carbs) mashed up.  They are a bitch to get in, I remember, so rather than spend time on it, he just left them all misshapen.  

The bike is in a bit worse shape than when he took it, but its nothing I can't fix.  I think it was a sign for me to keep it.  Now its time to spend some time on it and get it back on the road.

[poffpaul]

I gave him back his $300 and took my bike back (1985 Ninja 900).

The bike is in a bit worse shape than when he took it, but its nothing I can't fix.  I think it was a sign for me to keep it.  Now its time to spend some time on it and get it back on the road.

Good move. Glad you got it sorted.