overcoming the lean o mometer...Any ideas

[KenH]

I have size 10.5 feet and I've never been able to shift or brake without moving my feet on any bike I've ever owned.



I don't think that anyone passing in "closely spaced, tight corners" on the street has any room to be calling other people squids.  How long did it take to get your feet ready to shift or brake from the *passenger pegs*, BTW?

I have size 10.5 feet, and when the balls of my feet are on the pegs my toes won't reach the shifter or brake lever on any of my bikes, by at least an inch. The ball of the foot is the meaty part directly behind the toes. It sounds like you have your arches on the pegs.

Yes, I sometimes do squiddly things when I ride, like pass poorly ridden RRs and Harleys in tight corners on a 200cc trail bike with fat tires, just because I can. It's almost as much fun as annoying someone on a bike with 2 or 3 times the displacement and 50% more suspension travel that cost 5 times as much by hanging on to their fender for a few miles of tight, twisty gravel road. Smashing people's self-esteem is so much fun. Using the passenger pegs is a calculated risk but effective in recalibrating my personal lean-o-mometer, a technique used only with an assured clear distance ahead.

[Sport-Touring]

[miles]

I have to weigh in and disagree with Ken's disagreement of my recomendation for foot placement.  as far as foot placement goes, it's all about the balls.  Of the the feet, that is.  So what if you have to move your foot to shift or brake?  I personally can't think of a single emergency situation that would require either action with any more speed than I could achieve while moving my feet.  In fact, very very few emergency situations call for shifter or rear brake use at all, as far as I can tell.

As a trade off, by giving up this reaction time benefit that I don't think holds any real world utility, you get a bunch of good things.  Cornering clearance, obviously, but also an improved mobility on the bike that allows weight shifts that won't unsettle the suspension much at all.  Also, that mobility may allow a better response in case of emergency.

[kevin_stevens]

I have size 10.5 feet, and when the balls of my feet are on the pegs my toes won't reach the shifter or brake lever on any of my bikes, by at least an inch. The ball of the foot is the meaty part directly behind the toes. It sounds like you have your arches on the pegs.

I know where the balls of my feet are.  I'm not an idiot.

What *you* said was that people shouldn't ride on the street with the balls of their feet on the pegs because it required the foot to be moved to reach the shifter or rear brake.

What *I* said was that, even with largish feet I have to move them to reach the shifter or rear brake whether I'm riding on the balls of my feet or not.

I guess I neglected to absolutely pound home the point that if you have to move them anyway, your argument is moot.  So now I have.

KeS

[KenH]

Sorry, I must have misread your post, or maybe you edited it since I read it. I thought you posted you didn't have to move your feet to shift or brake when the balls of your feet were on the pegs. Just because you've always done it that way means you are comfortable doing it that way, but it doesn't mean that is the most comfortable method for every rider or even that that your way is the best way for any rider. Whatever, I prefered to relocate the footpegs to provide adequate cornering clearance on my roadrace bikes and adjust the shift and brake levers to fit so I didn't have to move my feet fore-and-aft on the pegs to shift or brake. That is merely another option the OP can consider, but not the only option. Of course, my racing days were back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, tires were chipped out of rocks, axles were made from wood, and you actually had to start with a few engine castings and build your own bike from the ground up to be competitive, so what do I know? Shoot, I haven't even ridden a bike with rearsets in 3 years so obviously I'm an idiot. Now, go ahead and  . Some of the people on this site really need to get laid or something.

[kevin_stevens]

Sorry, I must have misread your post, or maybe you edited it since I read it. I thought you posted you didn't have to move your feet to shift or brake when the balls of your feet were on the pegs. Just because you've always done it that way means you are comfortable doing it that way, but it doesn't mean that is the most comfortable method for every rider or even that that your way is the best way for any rider.

No, what it MEANS is that, beginning with a 1971 TS125, and ranging through twenty or so street bikes to a current 2006 ZX-14, I've *never* had a street bike (remember you were talking about streetbikes, not your custom rearset racebikes) that could be adjusted so that they could be actuated without moving your feet.  I'm not talking about my preferences, I'm talking about the pragmatics of street bike...  oh, to hell with it.  Never mind.

KeS

[BBs99]

I'm with what they all said.  

I used to ride with a "sportbike" group in my local area.  They didn't like the fact that my daughter liked to ride with me, especially on group rides. I was absolutely looked down upon because I didn't have full leathers, with knee pucks.  
Seemed like every week it was "rider down"!!  

Sorry, but my feelings are that the street is NOT the place to be trying to drag parts, or a knee.  In the over 20 years off and on that I have been riding, the only time I dragged something on the street, was when I was crashing.  

I have had no problem in the past dragging a knee on the track.

I take offense to that.  I've never ridden with you keppy, but I ride with the group you're talking about.  I think we all encourage full gear of some sort, but to say any of us "looked down" on you for not having pucks is just false.  As for someone crashing every week, I only recall one major incident that involved one of the regulars on a group ride since I've started riding with them 4 years ago.  Every group is gonna have some minor get offs, but when everyone rides "the pace"(like we do) and wears gear, we almost always all go home safe.

Brad

[joema]

...track day...are more money than I have available and second the closest track is almost four hours away...

There's a good track at Lime Rock, CT, not too far from you. However I don't know if there are any motorcycle track days there. Maybe you could inquire locally. Sometimes vehicle dealers or other organizations sponsor periodic track days which are not highly publicized.

[JonS]

So I'm going to disagree with some of what has been posted so far and say that there are times on the road that leaning far enough to drag parts is OK.  I'm a very firm believer of riding outside one's limits on occasion, for the very reason that if it's never practiced, when an emergency comes up the tools to deal with it simply won't be there.

I'm not suggesting that knee-down is an appropriate way to ride all the time, but on empty roads with good sightlines practicing high lean angles is perfectly acceptable.  That said, a good track day can help quite a bit, but unless you reinforce what you've learned when you take those skills back to the road it hasn't done any good.

My tips for working on lean:

Ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs.  All the time.  It obviously gives greater ground clearance in the turns, but also improves your ability to move around on the bike.  This might really come in handy one day in an emergency.

Crawl forward on the bike.  Get your weight over the tank as you go deep through a turn.  The tire with more weight on it is less likely to slide out, and it's a whole lot less stressful when the rear slides a bit than when the front does.

Look down the road.  Keep your head level (as has been mentioned) and look as far down the road as you can.  Many of us have too close a focus.  If it's a series of linked turns, you should be looking at the next even before you apex the one you're in.  This helps improve your lines in two ways.  The first is that you will naturally set up better for the next turn if you start mentally dealing with it earlier.  The second is that your responses will be less abrupt because you're setting up for something well in advance so your chassis will be settled and your bike will be under better control.

Don't worry about hanging off.  If you're already in the habit, great.  It is an important skill.  If you aren't, well... work on it on a different day.  Don't overload your skill building session with too many things at once.  When you do choose to practice hanging off, it can happen on any turn at any speed (but it'll look silly a lot of the time).  For starters, shift your butt cheeks so the inside cheek is off the saddle.  That's all.  It is important to keep your upper body on the inside of a centerline above the tank.  Remember the bit about crawling forward?  Be forward and in.  Do this on a regular basis on your normal rides and at your normal pace.  You'll find that your chicken strips will actually get wider as you learn to keep the bike more upright.
Later on, as you become more comfortable, have another rider who hangs off well critique your position.  

At this stage, position is more important than outright speed.  You could be pathetically slow but still have good form leaning off.  Don't try to combine hanging off with going fast until you are comfortable in the position.  Getting a knee out comes later.  As you get more used to it, increase your speed.  Soon you will find that you can go through familiar turns much more quickly and with less drama than you ever could before.




I hope these tips help.
 

Everything Miles wrote is how I ride and it works. The only thing I don't do is strive to get a knee down.
I always lead with my shoulder, when I enter a turn quickly, and never try to use my knee for anything other than keeping my lower leg attached.
The most important thing is getting your weight to the front. If that doesn't happen, none of the other things work.

[sagerat]

Word of advice for overcoming lean o meter:  Don't.  

[miles]

Word of advice for overcoming lean o meter:  Don't.  

Says the man who rides a Ural.

[KenH]

Says the man who rides a Ural.

 

[sagerat]

Yeah, I know, but I also have two-wheelers.  

Actually, you can lean too far on a sidecar.  I've seen it when people try to fly the chair and goof, sending the hack over the bike when they catch the left footpeg or engine guard, off roading and get the hack above the bike too much and it will come over, and you can flip the bike over the hack if you go nuts on a left hander, especially if negative camber is involved.

Ahem, I once got the rear wheel up when doing an overly enthusiastic left hand turn at a light and playing with the throttle.  This is not a comfortable feeling.

In short, kids, sidecars do have tipover lines.  

[chornbe]

 OK, so I have been riding thirty something years and enjoy a brisk pace. I am never the fastest guy with the groups I ride  with but usually more towards the front not the rear. I recently did a ton of work to my ZZR1200 , new Wheel bearings, steering head bearings, fork fluid drain flush and change, new tires, Lowered the front a little for quicker turn in, fooled with all the suspension settings and now my bike is handling the best it ever has by a large margin.
  So here is my problem: when I get into a good turn my brain shuts off my built in lean o mometer as soon as my toes touch the ground duringing the corner. I have long legs and my toes point down just a little from the foot peg and they hit first.
 How do I get to the next step where my foot pegs hit?  I pull my feet back on the peg so my toes wont hit ( Uncomfortable by the way Because I have to bend my knees more)  but my brain still shuts off the built in lean o mometer. I always have those embarrassing chicken strips on my Stradas, They are  pretty small but they are still there. Any Ideas? at 52 can you teach an old dog new tricks?

The Lee Parks class is for you. Seriously...

They spend a ton of time going over the various steps that make up a turn. Tucking the feet up out of the way and proper body positioning techniques sound like they would help you a whole lot.

[chornbe]

  Most guys who are riding on the street and do not have chicken strips are usually NOT properly leaning off of their bikes. The whole idea of "leaning off" or "shifting your weight" through a turn is so the bike can be more upright through the turn which enables you to do the same turn at a greater speed without dragging parts. If they are doing it this way, they are riding to fast for the street (in my opinion). Like said above, doing a track-day is the best way to learn all about you and your bike limitations. A track day typically cost about $200 bucks, not bad for being able to ride as fast as you are able to safely. And it's a hell of alot of fun. Your track being ONLY 4 hours away sounds like a GREAT way to spend the day.

+1

Nicely put.

[bomber]

On the street, as other have said, you're fine -- no woories . . .

If you really wish to go faster, again, as others have said, track daze are your friends . . . . .

In any event, I concur that you should get your feets balls onto the pegs, track or street -- if your knees aren't happy about that (and I understand) exercize so they ARE happy, or mod the bike . . . you'll have much more control over the bike, and you'll be removing one of the most complex structures of your person a bit further away from harm . .. . . . .

[ctbandit]

^^ by the uber controversial IO-bot (deals gap crash thread)

Everyone's said some great stuff. Pull your feet up more so just the balls of your feet are on the peg. Parking lot practice is great, and the slower speeds, predictable road surface, and repeatability make it a great way to learn. That vid above is at the rt 8 boat launch. I've always got some strips left on the tire, but I never go so hard that I'd use the edges on the street. It's above my head and it's just too unpredictable.

 As far as the trackdays go, they seem pricey, but for a full day of riding where you can work on technique and get feedback from experts its worth it. tonystrackdays.com is a good local organization that hosts days in NJ and NH. both are kind of far, but you can usually find someone to share rides with on bandofriders.net(mostly CT folks) or NESR (more spread through NE). BoRn also hosts a lot of raffles for track days, and does some giveaways (I just won a free track day!).

I'll be getting some service done this week, but maybe we can head out for a ride. We can try to find a lot and critique each other.

[skip]

^^ by the uber controversial IO-bot (deals gap crash thread)

Everyone's said some great stuff. Pull your feet up more so just the balls of your feet are on the peg. Parking lot practice is great, and the slower speeds, predictable road surface, and repeatability make it a great way to learn. That vid above is at the rt 8 boat launch. I've always got some strips left on the tire, but I never go so hard that I'd use the edges on the street. It's above my head and it's just too unpredictable.

 As far as the trackdays go, they seem pricey, but for a full day of riding where you can work on technique and get feedback from experts its worth it. tonystrackdays.com is a good local organization that hosts days in NJ and NH. both are kind of far, but you can usually find someone to share rides with on bandofriders.net(mostly CT folks) or NESR (more spread through NE). BoRn also hosts a lot of raffles for track days, and does some giveaways (I just won a free track day!).

I'll be getting some service done this week, but maybe we can head out for a ride. We can try to find a lot and critique each other.

thanks that might  just  help