Organ Damage In Rats From Monsanto Corn

[Mookie]

So they should invest millions into their product only to have someone take the seeds and profit by competing (without start up costs)?

Yeah, people "stealing" from Monsanto because their crops were ruined by Monsanto genetic cross pollination in order to force them to buy Monsanto seeds.  Maybe we should just send them all to jail for growing stolen corn  

[Sport-Touring]

[DNA]

To be technically correct, cross-pollination and other traditional methods to make hybrid plants is not "GM."  GM is going in and tinkering with the plant's RNA in a lab for specific targeted results.

So, unless the Mayans were a lot more advanced than we've discovered (and that's always possible), they didn't tinker with the plant's RNA.  

Ahem...Cough...If you want to maintain some (any) credibility on technical issues, you might want to check your science...


I am not a big fan of GM food - but I greatly prefer it to letting millions of people starve to death.

Ask a poor farmer which he would prefer - high productivity GM crops or a slow agonizing death and I'm pretty sure which he will choose.

Do you all think GM food would be ok if it was given away for free?  

I think it is not the risk that upsets people really, it is the profit that is made.  If it was free - no one would care - except all the out of work french farmers.

[Mookie]

Ahem...Cough...If you want to maintain some (any) credibility on technical issues, you might want to check your science...


I am not a big fan of GM food - but I greatly prefer it to letting millions of people starve to death.

Ask a poor farmer which he would prefer - high productivity GM crops or a slow agonizing death and I'm pretty sure which he will choose.

Do you all think GM food would be ok if it was given away for free?  

I think it is not the risk that upsets people really, it is the profit that is made.  If it was free - no one would care - except all the out of work french farmers.

I think people are upset with them because once Monsanto et all decides they are going to plant some of their modified crops anyone in the area is then being forced to use them, due to the fact that it's impossible to control once it's put out into fields.  GM corn permitted only as animal feed stock then blends with regular corn of the farmers next door, now everybody is eating feedstock...  Terminator seeds are a great way to basically destroy the entire food supply if they are allowed to be planted.   The fact that there are basically no long term studies on the effects of these plants on people before they are planted is another.

I'm all for making more food for people but not at the expense of all those people's future crops.   That makes no sense at all.  Except for the corporation that controls the seeds.  They stand to profit heavily from the privatization of food.

[CLAY]

The more I read about Monsanto, the more they typify the "evil-megacorp" stereotype. I had no idea their first product was saccharin. Then they moved to DDT, Agent Orange, PCBs, aspartame, Bovine Growth Hormones, and they even supplied Zyklon-B to the German government during WWII!

Read their SourceWatch.org page and form your own opinion.

   Dude, really.  These things they developed all allowed you and your parents to get food.  Many times they were misused or we didn't know they long term effects of them.  All of those things served a purpose in putting food on the table and making the US what it is today (granted, not perfect, but I wouldn't live anywhere else).  

You gonna bitch about how many people died from non safety glass in car crashes before it was mandated too?  

What you really should do is go to some of these third world countries and take their GM food away- that way they wouldn't get possible stomach issues.  In fact, you might want to burn all their GM crops that grow in poor soil conditions.  They shouldn't be eating that GM crap, and they shouldn't be keeping their pests and weeds under control using MS products like RoundUp.

You could really make a difference then!  

[shiney]

If we replace them wimpy lab "mice" with some real New York sewer rats the results would be drastically different.

[Mark Milanowski]

Check this out. If you have a bit of time.

http://www.hulu.com/the-future-of-food?c=News-and-Information/Documentary-and-Biography

Puts Monsanto in a different light. They started patenting their genetically modified seed then suing the bejesus out of everyone. They transversed the farm belt and took samples from private land then sued the farmers out of buisness when they found some of "their" dna in the farmers crop.

Farmers used to save some seed each year for next years planting. Monsanto stopped that.

The funny thing is that Monsanto would convince some farmers to grow a small demonstration crop. The cross polination of the all the crops would happen naturally. The farmer would get sued.

They are at it in Mexico now, screwing up the last wild natural strains of maize in the world.


Money talks.

[antvq]

^^^^  I'd read about that before.   What is even more ridiculous is that courts upheld their claims.   It's akin to taking a prize poodle and letting it roam free then suing your neighbors because their female dogs get pregnant by it.  

At first they were just bastards.  Now they are bastards growing crops that could be harmful to people.  

[KenH]

Check this out. If you have a bit of time.

http://www.hulu.com/the-future-of-food?c=News-and-Information/Documentary-and-Biography

Puts Monsanto in a different light. They started patenting their genetically modified seed then suing the bejesus out of everyone. They transversed the farm belt and took samples from private land then sued the farmers out of buisness when they found some of "their" dna in the farmers crop.

Farmers used to save some seed each year for next years planting. Monsanto stopped that.

The funny thing is that Monsanto would convince some farmers to grow a small demonstration crop. The cross polination of the all the crops would happen naturally. The farmer would get sued.

They are at it in Mexico now, screwing up the last wild natural strains of maize in the world.


Money talks.

It just goes to show you that a PhD in one area does not preclude total ignorance in another. If Monsanto genetics finds its way into my sweet corn do you think I could press charges for their corn forcing my corn to procreate without permission? Can the pollinator be charged with accessory or aiding and abetting?

[MadOzodi]

Next time I ride by one of their fields you guys want me to yell obscenities at the scientists harvesting their current genetic mutations?  Heh, I actually have a good friend that used to work there.  I'd often ask him, "So, what'd you splice today?"  

[Snowbird]

Check this out. If you have a bit of time.

http://www.hulu.com/the-future-of-food?c=News-and-Information/Documentary-and-Biography

Puts Monsanto in a different light. They started patenting their genetically modified seed then suing the bejesus out of everyone. They transversed the farm belt and took samples from private land then sued the farmers out of buisness when they found some of "their" dna in the farmers crop.

Farmers used to save some seed each year for next years planting. Monsanto stopped that.

The funny thing is that Monsanto would convince some farmers to grow a small demonstration crop. The cross polination of the all the crops would happen naturally. The farmer would get sued.

They are at it in Mexico now, screwing up the last wild natural strains of maize in the world.


Money talks.

I cannot fathom the minds of the pro-GM crop people. Here we have a clear outright assault on the food supply and some people are arguing in it's defense.

[zer0netgain]

I cannot fathom the minds of the pro-GM crop people. Here we have a clear outright assault on the food supply and some people are arguing in it's defense.

Times like this I think of Stephen King's The Stand.

When humanity passes from this earth it might be from our own short-sightedness.  Forget wars and bombs.  We might make a new vaccine that has unseen health impacts, a revolutionary product that does it all...until something happens to the supply but we've forgotten how to do without it, etc.

[Baz]

What happens if you eat the affected rats?

[Mookie]

What happens if you eat the affected rats?

You get superpowers.

[bomber]

Like 1950s Russia?

[Hickey]

I am a corn and soybean farmer.  I am also a Monsanto brands seed dealer, so I sell and plant Monsanto brand seeds.  I have had to learn about the genetically modified crop issues because all of this is irrevocably linked to my job.  All of that said, I am no fan of Monsanto and I'll try to explain why while I clear up some misconceptions that have popped up in this thread.

The soybean seeds that we farmers plant are almost always GM, so that they will have the Roundup Ready gene, which is patented by Monsanto.  There may or may not be other GM traits inserted into the genetics for other herbicide resistances or disease resistance.  Those genes may be from Monsanto or some other seed company like Pioneer.  Farmers want this seed because it boosts yield and simplifies weed control.  My average yields have gone up by more than 30% since the advent of GM seeds.  Instead of up to three herbicide applications, using three or more different herbicides, I now usually use one application of one or two herbicides.  We definitely use less herbicide now -- a lot less.

Farmers sign a technology agreement promising not to retain seed after harvest for replanting the following year.  This agreement exists because soybean seeds are not sterile.  If I grow a field of a particular variety of soybeans, what I harvest will be that same seed with the same traits, just a lot more of it than I bought to plant that field.  Not only are these plants and their seeds not sterile, they also can't cause sterility via cross pollenation with unrelated plants nearby.  Perhaps in the future that will change, but for the time being, forced sterility is a fiction.

Corn is a different matter.  Firstly, the corn I'm going to be talking about here is field corn which has various industrial uses, not the sweet corn that you'd buy at the grocery store.  Corn seed is the result of hybridization, with male plants and female plants in a field that is grown for seed for the following year.  This has been the way corn seed has been grown a sold to farmers for many decades.  Why?  Regardless of GM traits, hybridized corn has a huge yield advantage.  Corn yields have gone up by more than 300% in the last century as a direct result of hybridized breeding programs.

Adding GM traits is just another set of tools that seed companies have used to boast the yields even more.  As with GM soybeans, my corn yields have gone up in the last few years as I've switched over to GM corn seed.  Again, Monsanto's Roundup Ready gene is omnipresent and for the same reasons I wrote above.  Corn has also been modified to insert many different kinds of disease and insect resistance, which reduces the total amount of chemicals that must be sprayed onto a field of corn.  For example, this coming season I will only apply insecticide on about 10% of my corn acres, instead of every acre just 6 years ago.

The problem with all of this as far as I'm concerned isn't the use of genetic engineering.  It is a selective breeding tool and we are going to need every trick we can come up with to push yields even higher, with many more crops, if we have any hope of being able to feed 10 billion people from the same (or fewer) acres of arable land in the not distant future.  If we discover a trait with an unintended health consequence, change it or drop it -- either of which is easier to do now than it would be with traditional breeding techniques.

My problem isn't with the applied science, it is with the business practices of the big player in this industry, Monsanto.  That company has a virtual monopoly on corn and soybean seed production in North America and therefore the world.  Because the Roundup Ready gene is patented, highly desired by farmers, and has no competition -- Monsanto licenses it's use to their competition.  I don't have a problem with that.  However, Monsanto doesn't just lease the trait, they force package deals of many patented traits on their competition.  Also Monsanto won't allow their traits to be mixed with certain competitor traits in the competitor's own seed!  This makes it nearly impossible to buy a corn or soybean seed that doesn't have Monsanto genetics and it severely hurts competitor brands from developing a completely separate genetic lines to compete with Monsanto in the marketplace.

So even though Monsanto isn't a true monopoly, they are able to leverage their competition to such a degree that Monsanto is able to act like a monopoly in some respects.  Such as influencing the price of seed.  When Monsanto raises their prices for seed, so does everyone else, because Monsanto raises the fees these other companies have to pay to get Monsanto's genetic traits.  And Monsanto sure has been raising the prices!  In the last three years, the price of a particular Monsanto corn seed has jumped by close to 40% -- despite being genetically unchanged/unimproved in that period.  

There is almost certainly going to be a big anti-trust case brought against Monsanto this year.  Greedy fuckers.  

[KenH]

I am a corn and soybean farmer.  I am also a Monsanto brands seed dealer, so I sell and plant Monsanto brand seeds.    

De Kald-Pfizer is better.

What kind of oil is best in a tractor.

John Deere Sucks.











































Sorry, couldn't resist.

[antvq]

Very good information  

But a question.   when you plant GM variates and nature does it's thing, what about your neighbors?  Now they get some of the same GM traits in their crops even if they don't want them through cross pollination correct?  Where does that leave them?   What if it's an organic farm next to yours?   How do you keep it from spreading?   And what rights to the farmers have against the seed companies?

We've heard of Monsanto going after farmers due to this, but couldn't an organic farmer sue for Monsanto 'ruining' his crops?

[Hickey]

I've managed to read through the article in the OP.  As near as I can tell that study was first released in 2007.  I know it says 2009 in the link in the first post, but I think that is the date of publication in that journal, not the date when the study was first introduced to the scientific world.

What they looked into is the genetic trait for Roundup herbicide resistance, called NK603.  They also tested two other traits that both allow the corn plant to produce a protein from the Bacillus thuringiensis bacteria in various parts of the corn plant -- giving it insect resistance.  This is called Bt corn and there are two main kinds:  MON810 which puts Bt in the stem to protect against the corn borer insect and MON863 which protects against root worms.

Naturally since 2007 there have been follow up studies and peer review.  There have also been governmental reactions.  The result of which seems to be that the original study is not being supported by additional independent research and there has been no governmental restrictions levied against the corn in question.  

Here is a quote from the Australian and New Zealand agency that oversees food safety:  "FSANZ is of the opinion that the recent article from Séraliniet al. provide no grounds to revise its previous conclusions on the safety of MON 863 corn as a food. Food derived from MON 863 corn is as safe and wholesome as food derived from other commercial corn varieties."   And a link to them:
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/educationalmaterial/factsheets/factsheets2009/fsanzreaffirmsitsris4404.cfm

[Hickey]

When you plant GM variates and nature does it's thing, what about your neighbors?  Now they get some of the same GM traits in their crops even if they don't want them through cross pollination correct?  Where does that leave them?   What if it's an organic farm next to yours?   How do you keep it from spreading?   And what rights to the farmers have against the seed companies?

We've heard of Monsanto going after farmers due to this, but couldn't an organic farmer sue for Monsanto 'ruining' his crops?

Cross pollination is a concern with corn in that a field of non-GMO corn right next to a field of Roundup Ready or Bt corn might end up producing grain that has picked up partial genes that code for GM traits.  This would effect the grain in the ear of the corn plant, not the plant itself.  And because corn seed is not held back for planting the following year (see hybridizing above) this would be a one-time issue if it occurred at all.

I used to grow non-GMO corn and it was exceptionally rare that we'd have problems with that.  Non-GMO corn is tested for GM traits when it is delivered to the buyer -- and we had very few loads rejected in the years we grew that specialty corn.  We stopped because the premium we were paid did not come close to making up for the yield difference, not because cross pollination was a problem.

Cross pollination of soybeans is even less of an issue.  Their flowers don't move pollen very far and produce a lot less of it over a shorter period of time -- compared to corn.

So called organic farming is simply not done on any scale at all with corn and soybeans near me.  The closest I can think of would be growing non-GMO corn or soybeans for a premium contract -- which isn't done much anymore since Europe lifted their restrictions on American GM crops.  I do have (and buy from) a local organic vegetable producer, but there is no danger at all of cross species pollination from the GM crops planted around their (really big) garden.  Oh and for the record, I buy from this local organic CSA because they are local, not because they are organic.  

Monsanto has sued farmers for violations of the seed technology agreement that the farmer signed in order to buy soybean seed, in which the farmer promised not to retain seed to plant the following year.  If Monsanto tests leaf samples from one of my fields and those samples are definitively proven through genetic tests to be a specific Monsanto soybean seed, I had better have seed invoices to account for that.  Cross pollination would not cause the plant itself to suddenly pick up some Monsanto trait, let alone change itself into a completely new variety.  I haven't looked into many of these cases, almost all are settled out of court.  But my understanding of the testing methods used to build a case is that cross pollination wouldn't explain the genetic testing results.  

[Baz]

Very good information  

But a question.   when you plant GM variates and nature does it's thing, what about your neighbors?  Now they get some of the same GM traits in their crops even if they don't want them through cross pollination correct?  Where does that leave them?   What if it's an organic farm next to yours?   How do you keep it from spreading?   And what rights to the farmers have against the seed companies?

We've heard of Monsanto going after farmers due to this, but couldn't an organic farmer sue for Monsanto 'ruining' his crops?

There was a farmner in Saskatchewan who was fighting Monsanto. They claimed he used their seeds without authorization, he claims they blew on his land.

He lost.  

http://www.mindfully.org/GE/Schmeiser-Loses-Monsanto.htm