New NC700x or used R1200RT?

[Royal Tiger]

I love how people who have never owned a BMW all seem to have some reliability story to share.    I've ridden the wheels off of the three I've owned with ZERO problems.  As have many others I know with BMW's.  as for final drive issues I was talking to a tech today that said his shop believes they are the result of over shimmed bearings.  He got a hold of a GS that went through two final drives set to factory specs.  They put a new one on and didn't shim it as tight.  It's now at 65k since the swap with not a single issue.  

And since once again this has become another bash thread our Hardly-Ableson police bikes break down more then anything I've ever seen on two wheels.  1980's Moto Guzzi police bikes probably ran longer between shop visits.

[Sport-Touring]

[falconati]

Hey, you loved the comparison I did for you.  

True!

[chesthing]

  as far as what?? Certainly not reliablity.

About a year ago I was talking to a couple of motorcycle cops at a Starbucks.

They had new Honsa ST1300's.

I asked them how they liked them?

They said they were running great and don't seem to have any issues with breaking driveshafts and eating brakes like their BMW's had.

To be fair, if BMW didn't care about weight, features or innovation their bikes would be stone reliable too.

[alekkas]

Well Tom, I was going to tell you you were a perfect candidate for a Wee Strom or Versys dependent on your love for high rpm in turns.  

Glad you found a bike you enjoy and that feels right.   Time will tell on the motor, but at those rpm limits and historical honda build, I am thinking those bikes will last a long time.  We will see.  I am thinking in a few years "bullet proof" will be used to describe.  I rode one and liked a lot about it.  

[FantasticJapaneseRocket]

I love how people who have never owned a BMW all seem to have some reliability story to share.    I've ridden the wheels off of the three I've owned with ZERO problems.  As have many others I know with BMW's.  

Some people get lucky I guess.......

Watch the video in this link......

http://wtkr.com/2013/03/28/which-motorcycles-are-the-most-reliable/


Another

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/05/most-reliable-motorcycles/index.htm

FEWEST REPAIRS NEEDED

YAMAHA       11%
KAWASAKI    13%
HONDA         14%
HARLEY         24%
BMW             30%  (worse than Harley!)

[Bigpoodle]

Some people get lucky I guess.......

Not believing everything you read on the Internet can greatly improve your luck.

[FantasticJapaneseRocket]

To be fair, if BMW didn't care about weight, features or innovation their bikes would be stone reliable too.

Plenty of features and innovation on the Japanese bikes AND cars.

Ever hear of the Honda CB750, that bike changed the motorcycling world and was named the most innovative/important motorcycle of the 20th Century! and that was way back in 1969!!

[FantasticJapaneseRocket]

Not believing everything you read on the Internet can greatly improve your luck.

It's not from the internet it's from a survey of 4,000 owners of motorcycles by Consumer Reports.
Not just some "story" from some guys internet site.

If you love BMW's fine, it's your money to buy what makes YOU happy.........but the reliability isn't as good as the Japanese.

Neither are German cars for that matter, BMW OR Mercedes.

[falconati]

Plenty of features and innovation on the Japanese bikes AND cars.

Ever hear of the Honda CB750, that bike changed the motorcycling world and was named the most innovative/important motorcycle of the 20th Century! and that was way back in 1969!!

Yep, way back in 1969.  What have they done recently that was really neat?  The only thing I can think of is the resurgence of smaller bikes.

It's not from the internet it's from a survey of 4,000 owners of motorcycles by Consumer Reports.
Not just some "story" from some guys internet site.

If you love BMW's fine, it's your money to buy what makes YOU happy.........but the reliability isn't as good as the Japanese.

Neither are German cars for that matter, BMW OR Mercedes.

How many have you had?  I've owned one BMW and it gave me no problems.  Also have been pleased with my 2 Ducs, 1 Triumph, 2 Aprilias and 1 MV Agusta.  Only had one problem with a sensor with my first Duc (ST3), replaced by the factory for free.

[sleazy rider]

A friend in Utah just bought a 700x like you.  I'm still waiting on a full review from him too.  

I'm more of a Eurobike rider.  Two Triumphs and a BMW for my last three bikes and I'm considering a Ducati for the next one.

[Royal Tiger]

It's not from the internet it's from a survey of 4,000 owners of motorcycles by Consumer Reports.
Not just some "story" from some guys internet site.

If you love BMW's fine, it's your money to buy what makes YOU happy.........but the reliability isn't as good as the Japanese.

Neither are German cars for that matter, BMW OR Mercedes.

I'd be willing to buy that.  I also think a lot of it comes from the type of people that buy Euro bikes for the "image".  Two examples:

The aprilia SXV/RXV say right in the manual it requires EXTREME maintenance.  Including frequent rebuilds as its a race bike with a plate.  It doesn't even have oil rings.  People bought them, loved how it made twice the power of a Suzuki DRZ400SM and then tried to treat it the same.

Suzuki SV1000 has had numerous issues with the clutches and the "green connector" over heating.  My aprilia RSV1000R had a known "brown connector" issue.  I have seen numerous times people brush over the Suzuki issue while on the very same forum cry about basically the same type of issue saying how unreliable Italian bikes are.  Both connectors can be replaced in under 10-15 minutes on both bikes and solve the issue completely.  

I think a lot of the people who buy expensive Euro bikes are the type that run back to the dealer for everything while more practical Japanese owners tend to fix their own.  We have a member in our Ducati Owners Club (I'm still a paid member even after selling my Duc) that takes his 1198 to the dealer for everything.  And I mean everything.  

[Bigpoodle]

It's not from the internet it's from a survey of 4,000 owners of motorcycles by Consumer Reports.
Not just some "story" from some guys internet site.

If you love BMW's fine, it's your money to buy what makes YOU happy.........but the reliability isn't as good as the Japanese.

Neither are German cars for that matter, BMW OR Mercedes.

Consumer Reports' vehicle reliability surveys blow chunks from a methodological and statistical standpoint. Basing a purchase decision on their results is marginally more likely to result in consumer satisfaction than basing it on a palm reader's report. The organization enjoys a halo effect from their testing and rating of certain products involving much larger and more truly random samples, and from their constant trumpeting of being unbiased because they don't accept advertising. Bullshit. CR has had to retract many conclusions when manufacturers (the only interested parties with deep enough pockets to thoroughly debunk their sloppy methodology) have taken the trouble to analyze and/or replicate their research with the thoroughness that is the norm in scientific research. The press doesn't have the time/money/motivation to do any such thing. They typically accept CR's word for things because of that halo effect, and rarely report (or probably even notice) the debunkings, which may not surface until years later.

The motorcycle survey is too recent to have been subjected to a full-scale objective analysis, although many observers have noticed such obvious weaknesses as the tiny sample sizes and the fact that respondents were self-selected from CR subscribers (not exactly a prejudice-free population). Here's one look at methodological issues that have plagued CR's structurally similar automotive surveys: http://www.allpar.com/cr.html .

We can certainly agree on the thought that people should buy whatever they believe will make them happy. We'll have to disagree on the wisdom of smugly accepting - and promoting as "proof" -  shitty research that happens to reinforce our own prejudices.

[dduelin]

I hope your new bike brings many miles of smiles and that it makes you happy in the long run.

[Max Wedge]

Consumer Reports' vehicle reliability surveys blow chunks from a methodological and statistical standpoint. Basing a purchase decision on their results is marginally more likely to result in consumer satisfaction than basing it on a palm reader's report. The organization enjoys a halo effect from their testing and rating of certain products involving much larger and more truly random samples, and from their constant trumpeting of being unbiased because they don't accept advertising. Bullshit. CR has had to retract many conclusions when manufacturers (the only interested parties with deep enough pockets to thoroughly debunk their sloppy methodology) have taken the trouble to analyze and/or replicate their research with the thoroughness that is the norm in scientific research. The press doesn't have the time/money/motivation to do any such thing. They typically accept CR's word for things because of that halo effect, and rarely report (or probably even notice) the debunkings, which may not surface until years later.

The motorcycle survey is too recent to have been subjected to a full-scale objective analysis, although many observers have noticed such obvious weaknesses as the tiny sample sizes and the fact that respondents were self-selected from CR subscribers (not exactly a prejudice-free population). Here's one look at methodological issues that have plagued CR's structurally similar automotive surveys: http://www.allpar.com/cr.html .

We can certainly agree on the thought that people should buy whatever they believe will make them happy. We'll have to disagree on the wisdom of smugly accepting - and promoting as "proof" -  shitty research that happens to reinforce our own prejudices.

Amen. CR has as much credibility as the internet. Examples: 1986 Chrysler Lebaron rated as good, 1986 Dodge Lancer rated as poor-same vehicle and drivetrains, different fascias and nameplates. 1984 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 rated as poor due to stiff ride and poor fuel economy. Yeah, you buy one of those for mileage and a cushy ride.

[FantasticJapaneseRocket]

Amen. CR has as much credibility as the internet. Examples: 1986 Chrysler Lebaron rated as good, 1986 Dodge Lancer rated as poor-same vehicle and drivetrains, different fascias and nameplates. 1984 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 rated as poor due to stiff ride and poor fuel economy. Yeah, you buy one of those for mileage and a cushy ride.

That's really pushing it to say CR doesn't have any more credibility than the internet.

Their credibility ratings come from surveys from ACTUAL OWNERS, thay arn't selling stuff like many internet sites. If the reports come from actual owners problems and REAL life experiences how can that be so bad??

The Lebaron and Lancer while having the same drivetrains may have differnt electrical and other different parts they arn't the identical same cars.
Many Chevys in the 80's were crap, many American cars were then.

That being said I agree buy what you want and what makes you happy, I've had vehicles before that I loved so much I was willing to overlook instances of lesser reliability just because the damn thing was so much fun to drive/ride!!

[FJRider]

It is not unreasonable to expect higher quality and reliability from Japanese bikes than those made in the US or Europe. Keep in mind quality = consistency. While some people may never have a problem with particular brand while a larger percentage of others do demonstrates this lack of consistency (aka Quality). It could be as something simple as a switch that causes a problem. Anybody who has ever supplied to a Japanese manufacturer knows the rigorous documentation, supplier auditing, reliability testing, material certs, PFMEAs, etc. that go into something as seemingly simple as that switch. It's a mindset not present in Europe, China or, sadly, the US motorcycle manufacturers. That's why, as a whole, you see less problems with Japanese bikes (and cars, electronics, etc).

[Bigpoodle]

Their credibility ratings come from surveys from ACTUAL OWNERS, thay arn't selling stuff like many internet sites. If the reports come from actual owners problems and REAL life experiences how can that be so bad??

Because the "ACTUAL OWNERS" are SELF SELECTED. CR shotguns the surveys and tallies up whatever comes back. Scientifically valid surveys first construct a sample which matches the general target population on as many dimensions as possible, and then watch for variations in response rate which might bias the data. If your sample is "Japan-worshiping self-righteous subscribers to CR," which is frequently the case, then you have a built-in bias from the get-go.

Furthermore, CR is extremely opaque about much of their methodology. When challenged in court they have had to back down a number of times because their sample sizes turned out to be too small to be statistically meaningful. The ever-popular "projected repair rate" numbers appear to be statistically questionable extrapolations from past data which may or may not be valid itself.

The one thing one has to credit CR for is that its reviews are better than nothing at all. Some of the in-house lab tests, where they actually buy (anonymously) one of each major competitor in a product category and then put them through their paces and stress-test them to see what fails, are pretty revealing (though a one-of-each sample is not statistically definitive). If you use CR reports as a data point in a buying decision, they can be helpful. If you are under the illusion that what they print is Divinely Revealed Wisdom, expect to be severely disappointed with the performance of some of your purchases.

As far as the Japanese owning a corner on manufacturing quality while the Yurpeans and Murricans are knuckle-dragging slobs, I take it you have never owned power tools. I still own every Bosch and Milwaukee tool I've bought in the last 45 years, and they still work as designed (which was better than the Japanese competitors  from day one). I've put a barrelfull of busted junk from Hitachi, Makita, and Ryobi out on the curb on recycling days over that period.

[FJRider]

As far as the Japanese owning a corner on manufacturing quality while the Yurpeans and Murricans are knuckle-dragging slobs, I take it you have never owned power tools. I still own every Bosch and Milwaukee tool I've bought in the last 45 years, and they still work as designed (which was better than the Japanese competitors  from day one). I've put a barrelfull of busted junk from Hitachi, Makita, and Ryobi out on the curb on recycling days over that period.

I am a Quality Engineer for a company which makes consumer products sold by the big box stores (Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc.). The name of the game is price. Quality doesn't matter. Our largest customer demands a 10% year-to-year price reduction. And they won't wait for us to give it to them - they will start taking 10% off our invoices as of a certain date.

Those consumer tools brands you mentioned are in the same boat. Regardless of the brand name it is now made in China. Usually near Shenzhen. And the Chinese don't give a rat's ass about quality. It's all about production. If you wonder why all the jobs are going overseas, If you wonder who is responsible for this mess - as a cunsumer, look in the mirror. You buy by price and the retailers accomdate you.

We had an RFQ from Toyota to build small relay boards for the interiar lights on a Lexus model. They required demonstration of meeting the 5 ppm target level. We were unable to do it. Our process was unable to meet 5 parts per million quality levels. We built an electronic clock for BMW and the quality requirements are more asthetic than quantitative.

[2DFlyer]

Well, I ended up with an NC700x.  

Congrats for not shooting yourself in the foot when pulling the trigger!  I ride a R1150RT and like it for commuting for a lot of reasons but am completely obsessed with the NC700X / engine as an every day ride and commuter.  Honda says they targeted new / returning riders but their accessory line says otherwise.  The RT's 6.5 ga tank / 250 mile commute / 300 mile touring range have me spoiled, so my only complaints on the NC are the smallish tank (though 200 mile range is a good bogie) and no ABS option.  Other than that - and that's just me - I think you've got a real winner that you can grow into.

[siclmn]

It sounds like the op's final decision was based heavily on the price.
It's only a 700cc?  "meh" as they say.
If I had to down shift for every pass, I would not enjoy my bike at all.